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Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by linguae on Sunday May 01, 2022 @03:34AM (#31222962)
A related issue to restrictions regarding camping is the politics of zoning laws in America. As someone who works in Silicon Valley and can afford to rent an apartment but cannot afford to purchase even a condo in the area, for the past few years I've researched alternatives such as living in a mobile home and buying land and placing a tiny house on it. However, the zoning laws in many of the municipalities within a two-hour radius of Silicon Valley make it very difficult to do these things. In all the municipalities I researched, I'm not allowed to live in a mobile home on my own land unless I'm in the process of building a home on a permanent foundation. Homes on a permanent foundation must meet minimum size requirements, thus prohibiting tiny homes and thus requires spending more money for a larger place. Permits can cost many thousands of dollars, and that's assuming I could get the permits. Water is a serious issue; in some parts of Monterey County, there are long waitlists to connect to the water system, and in Cambria (a town in northern San Luis Obispo County) there's an ordinance barring any new construction until more water is available.

A part of me understands the rationale for these restrictions. But another part of me feels discouraged that the real estate market in much of California is all sewn up with no way to "hack" it without figuring out how to make $200K+ per year or throwing in the towel and moving to some other part of the state or outside California. Thus I continue to rent my apartment while trying to find other ways to get into real estate.

Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by SamoyedFurFluff on Sunday May 01, 2022 @05:20AM (#31223423)
Serious answer: get into your local politics. Start calling up your representatives and demanding this change. Find a representative for which this is a key issue for them and start campaigning to get them elected or re-elected. Organize with other renters; there’s more of you than there are land owners there I bet.

The number of voters needed to radically alter the landscape of extremely local politics is probably maybe a dozen or less in this way, btw.

Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by zbrozek on Sunday May 01, 2022 @08:13AM (#31224393)
I got 14 residents of Los Altos Hills to join me to ask for changes to local zoning law. The council completely ignored us.

You have to be on the council, along with a like-minded majority. It'll be a full time job for all of you.

Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by samatman on Sunday May 01, 2022 @08:34AM (#31224504)
The bar is more accurately described as "controlling the selectorate", you need to be whomever is able to rally the votes to put people on or off the council. That person already exists, and has a lifetime's head start. Good luck.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by zo1 on Sunday May 01, 2022 @10:25AM (#31225246)
I disagree fully. This is not "Democracy". This is arbitrary little dictators pushing their little pet agenda forward (no matter how good in your example) over those that just want to be left alone. The same thing you're advocating is the same reason the landscape of regulation is currently such a mess.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by refurb on Sunday May 01, 2022 @12:07PM (#31226160)
This reminds me of the guy who got bullied by his HOA, so he got a group to run, won, and dissolved the HOA.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by donthellbanme on Sunday May 01, 2022 @08:41AM (#31224556)
Gavin Nuesome actually had good intentions with streamlining ADU's in California.

It turns out only the wealthy are taking advantage of the gift though.

In my county, I believe 6 guys took advantage of the streamlined process. It's still very expensive.

They used building the ADU as an excuse to build a bigger house, and that variance is hard to get, but if you have money and kiss ass, you can get it.

I believe almost all the 6 used an ADA unit to increase the size of their home. They all had to get variances from the town, and 5 got it. One homeowner refused to kiss the town council's ass, write begging letters to his neighbors, and attent countless meetings while paying for an architect, and a Builder's time.

They are all asked a bunch of questions.

The one that got me is "Are you going to rent the unit out to low income individuals. (Low income in my town is like "$90, 000. Yea--really. $110,00 if married.". All basically lied, and said yes they will rent it to a Nun. They wanted a bigger home, and the ADU will be used as----an Art studio, or for Lupe' the cheap help that will wipe them in later life?

My point putting in an ADU is fine, and I'm glad Neusome streamlined the process. People aren't taking advantage of it besides the wealthy though. The people whom didn't need any help.

I would rather see something different.

1. If a person (not a corporation, rich foreigner, etc.) of modest means buys a small piece of land they can put a trailer, tent, small cabin, etc. on the land. And of course live there. I'd even be ok with no foundations until you build properly, and no renting unless you offer it for free. I'd even be ok with time limits that are reviewed every ten years for free. So basically a guy would have to go in front of some official and sign a declaration that they still don't have the money to build a proper unit.

2. CA counties, and towns are going to be told to build more housing in the future if Neusome is still around. They only way I see it happening is if we start building huge blocks of housing, like I see being demolished in Ukraine. (I've seen pictures of Russia. It does look like everyone is in a reasonably priced apartment. I guess it's a leftover from evil Socialism.

Personally, I'd be happy with 1. I just don't think the powers at be really want to help the very poor.

Marin County, San Anselmo. This is basically the town I'm writing about. Newsome has a mansion here where Jenny wanders room to room trying to find something "important" in life to do. Be careful Gavin. She reminds me of an Amber Heard. I honestly like the guy. He was voted most fashionable in my high school.)

Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by Fatnino on Sunday May 01, 2022 @12:37PM (#31226400)
Why do you repeatedly misspell the governor's last name when you clearly know how it's supposed to be spelled? As evidenced by the last instance.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by throw0101a on Sunday May 01, 2022 @07:22AM (#31224078)
While there's a lot of NIMBY about zoning higher density, is not the problem also (partly) that 'price' can't be used as a motivating factor for more efficient (people/area) land use?

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_13

Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by em-bee on Sunday May 01, 2022 @11:36AM (#31225890)
i wonder if a hack like this would work: a large courtyard inside the house. so the actual inside living area is much less than what it looks like from the outside.

the only question is if you can get away with not putting a roof over the courtyard or if you can find a very cheap, lightweight roof that you can move aside.

Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by yesenadam on Sunday May 01, 2022 @10:40AM (#31225369)
> unless I'm in the process of building a home on a permanent foundation.

Would it possible to do that, but extremely slowly? What counts as being "in the process"? Just designing your home might take you many, many years...

Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by bitxbitxbitcoin on Sunday May 01, 2022 @11:00AM (#31225553)
No. The rules account for that and generally you get permission to live in the temporary mobile home for x amount of months with a provision for an extension for another x amount of months. You don’t get the permission to put up the mobile home/tiny home until after your designs have been completed and approved.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by beamatronic on Sunday May 01, 2022 @10:01AM (#31225067)
There are still plenty of ways to “hack” it, but they are all unpleasant. Is your goal to accumulate cash/build your net worth?
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by hotpotamus on Sunday May 01, 2022 @08:53AM (#31224634)
My parents recently bought a plot of land in a mobile home development in order to house my uncle with mental health issues. They have the exact same requirements you mention above - no travel trailers as permanent housing and permanent housing must meet square footage requirements. In a place named $X Mobile Home Estates. And in supposedly low-tax, freedom-loving Texas; not California.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by s1artibartfast on Sunday May 01, 2022 @09:37AM (#31224917)
Mobile home parks don't sell the land outright, but sell the rights to park a trailer on it. Are the regs from the park or the state
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by hotpotamus on Sunday May 01, 2022 @09:47AM (#31224976)
I did not say they bought land in a mobile home park.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by jddddd on Sunday May 01, 2022 @09:49AM (#31224990)
> My parents recently bought a plot of land in a mobile home development

Did you forget what you wrote?

Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by hotpotamus on Sunday May 01, 2022 @10:02AM (#31225076)
In fact I was quite careful with my words to use development because I did not feel that park described the situation. The plot is a quarter acre with it's own electrical and water connections that is in fact owned by my parents. I was somewhat circumspect, but I'll just use the actual name of the neighborhood - it is Canyon Lake Mobile Home Estates in Canyon Lake, TX. Up to a few years ago, it was a rural backwater on "the wrong side of the lake" and does not actually feature lake access or much chance of a view. For the last few years (predating the pandemic, but the pandemic seems like an accelerant) it has, like much of Texas, seen significant in-migration, probably exacerbated by its proximity to Austin. All that said, I still find it ridiculous that they don't allow people to live in travel trailers.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by em-bee on Sunday May 01, 2022 @11:24AM (#31225760)
i guess what we are all not clear about is what is the difference between a mobile home and a trailer. my guess is mobile home refers to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufactured_housing which are factory assembled buildings that are moved as a whole to their destination where they make a permanent structure because they don't have wheels.

rules like these probably try to influence what kind of people are going to choose to live there.

Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by hotpotamus on Sunday May 01, 2022 @11:31AM (#31225833)
I think your statement is correct in theory, but when you get into the actual practice of low-income housing, the lines get quite blurry and calling it a "mobile home" sure doesn't help. I'd say I'm more incensed at the idea of being told how to live on property that I putatively own, especially in a state that claims to have great respect for property rights.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by em-bee on Sunday May 01, 2022 @11:45AM (#31225965)
incensed

oh, totally, things like that would drive me mad. if i am ever going to buy a plot of land then i'd want to do it far away from anyone who can tell me what do do with it (short of forest fire safety and pollution)

Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by gabereiser on Sunday May 01, 2022 @05:45AM (#31223542)
The real crime here is making six figures and not being able to afford to buy a 1-bedroom apartment. Capitalism.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by Dma54rhs on Sunday May 01, 2022 @06:51AM (#31223900)
You can save and live like a king all around the world, Silicon Valley programmers are the infamous %1 in the eyes of world.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by MomoXenosaga on Sunday May 01, 2022 @12:07PM (#31226158)
So how the hell does this work in SF? Where do your cleaners, barristas, teachers and other assorted pauper servants live? Do they put them in caves under the ground in California or something?
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by linguae on Sunday May 01, 2022 @12:28PM (#31226325)
They tend to either live with multiple roommates, commute from faraway places (like Stockton, Los Banos, and Salinas), or live in their vehicles. I remember reading an article (https://www.kqed.org/news/10467044/long-commute-to-silicon-v...) about a Stanford cafeteria worker who commuted from Stockton on public transportation.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by gabereiser on Sunday May 01, 2022 @02:06PM (#31227239)
Isn't this exactly what I was referring to? Not being able to afford even a 1-bedroom apartment in the city of which they work?
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by db48x on Sunday May 01, 2022 @08:03AM (#31224335)
It’s not capitalism; it’s excessive government regulation preventing new housing from being built. (Also the ocean too)
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by usrn on Sunday May 01, 2022 @12:43PM (#31226447)
Also extremely high immigration. We're in the high part of our immigration cycle which means depressed wages and expensive housing.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by jeromegv on Sunday May 01, 2022 @09:58AM (#31225051)
Some people might say it’s capitalism that allowed rich homeowners to take over government to create themselves laws to protect their real estate investment. Laws of the rich to make themselves richer.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by db48x on Sunday May 01, 2022 @10:02AM (#31225075)
That cannot be capitalism’s fault, because the city government is elected. Every adult gets one vote, no matter how much money they have. Every person has as much right as every other to try to convince the elected members of that government to take the correct course of action. If your city government is unfairly favoring one segment of the city’s population over another then you should elect a better one. Not all cities are as badly run as San Francisco. It can be done.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by supernovae on Sunday May 01, 2022 @08:58AM (#31224670)
It’s capitalism. We have plenty of housing but a capitalist society protects hoarding housing more than equalizing housing. You end up with more airbnb, “investment” rentals or abandoned properties stuck in legal limbo than inventory for first time home buyers.

you can’t build to infinity when everything is built out…

Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by db48x on Sunday May 01, 2022 @09:08AM (#31224737)
Well, you’re not completely wrong there. In this case however, San Francisco is full to the gills with 100–year–old two–story houses, which the city government will not allow anyone to knock down and replace with four–story houses.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by YATA1 on Sunday May 01, 2022 @02:12PM (#31227304)
The real crime here is making six figures and not being able to afford to buy a 1-bedroom apartment. Leftism.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by vehemenz on Sunday May 01, 2022 @06:24AM (#31223741)
Anyone making six figures can live like a king almost anywhere in the US. Capitalism.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by beaconstudios on Sunday May 01, 2022 @06:43AM (#31223857)
Just not in the places where you can actually make six figures!
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by giraffe_lady on Sunday May 01, 2022 @08:12AM (#31224389)
It may not have been the case even five years ago and you definitely won't make the same six figures, but that simple threshold is probably in reach in any mid-size american city for a software dev more than a year or two into their career.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by tzs on Sunday May 01, 2022 @10:47AM (#31225438)
I'm a bit confused by housing in San Francisco. The median household income in San Francisco is around $120k, which suggests that making six figures is quite sufficient for living in San Francisco.

But the impression I often get on HN is that you've got people making well above that finding themselves barely able to afford a place to live in SF.

I'm clearly missing something, but what?

Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by beaconstudios on Sunday May 01, 2022 @11:39AM (#31225912)
I think everybody is just stuck renting and can't get on the property ladder.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by usrn on Sunday May 01, 2022 @12:49PM (#31226500)
Half goes to taxes and half of what's left over goes to rent. After that you have to save up for a pretty large downpayment.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by pandaman on Sunday May 01, 2022 @03:48PM (#31228055)
Somebody could have bought a house in 90s for 200K, retired and live in the same house, which has appreciated to 2M now, drawing on 60K retirement. Somebody making 180K cannot afford the 2M house even though these two individuals have a median 120K income and the latter makes much more than the former.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by supertofu on Sunday May 01, 2022 @08:41AM (#31224560)
I make six figures and can afford only a modest 1-bedroom in a rural area well outside of an east coast university town. I will probably not be able to afford a house without parental help.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by vehemenz on Sunday May 01, 2022 @09:20AM (#31224800)
My back-of-the-napkin math suggests you are in a high COL area. It's not an indictment of capitalism if you choose to live in a desirable area, have a generous salary, and just can't make it work. That or you are mishandling your finances, but I don't know your situation. For reference, I am debt-free homeowner in a midwest university town and make much less than you.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by base698 on Sunday May 01, 2022 @10:06AM (#31225102)
I recently started the process of moving from my high cost of living California home to a low cost of living, but still on the coast city. Three years ago you'd see homes in this city for $300k. Almost all of them are now approaching $600k. The areas which used to be considered low cost are now unaffordable to everyone currently living there as well as a large swath of people not making huge total comp at FAANG. Other costs are still less expensive but housing is nuts everywhere I've looked.

The only homes I've seen for $200k need to basically be torn down and are too small for a family.

Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by ghaff on Sunday May 01, 2022 @10:06AM (#31225105)
The Bay Area in particular is something of an outlier in that it's pretty hard to reasonably drive out of the expensive area in, say, an hour.

That's much less true of most metros. Even a fairly expensive city like Boston, while there are expensive suburban towns, an hour drive gets you to some small cities, exurbs, and other suburbs where housing prices are--if not cheap--pretty reasonable (e.g. $300-400K for midrange houses--though prices may have risen). And a lot of the professional jobs are well outside the city anyway.

Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by tzs on Sunday May 01, 2022 @11:06AM (#31225605)
Even in the Bay Area about an hour's drive gets you to Stockton which has plenty of houses for sale for under $450k that look pretty decent on Redfin.

An hour or so commute each way sucks, but if you can get a Bay Area job that is either fully WFH or that only requires you to come into the office once a week being an hour away wouldn't be too bad, especially if you can arrange the hours on that one day a week you come in so that you are't driving during the most congested times.

Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by ghaff on Sunday May 01, 2022 @11:11AM (#31225659)
I had about a 90 minute commute (either mostly driving or mostly train) for about 18 months--averaging coming into my Boston office maybe a couple days a week. I wouldn't have wanted to do that long term and stretches when I was in more frequently were pretty bad. But it's pretty manageable for one day a week.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by PaulDavisThe1st on Sunday May 01, 2022 @09:43AM (#31224955)
> It's not an indictment of capitalism if you choose to live in a desirable area, have a generous salary, and just can't make it work.

It's an indictment of any system that people making twice the median household income cannot afford to buy housing within a reasonable distance of wherever their labor generates that income. It's a terrible situation - communities in which at least half of the necessary jobs do not pay enough for the people who do those jobs to live in the community - and it isn't good for anyone in or around those communities, and probably not for the nation as a whole.

The fact that, yes, yes of course there are other communities where the economics are different doesn't in any way mitigate the fucked-up ness of the situation the GP is describing.

Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by beamatronic on Sunday May 01, 2022 @09:56AM (#31225032)
>> Midwest
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by vehemenz on Sunday May 01, 2022 @10:03AM (#31225080)
Is it a failure of capitalism if semi-rich people can't afford to live among rich people on the coasts?
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by beamatronic on Sunday May 01, 2022 @10:12AM (#31225152)
I suppose that depends on how you evaluate the success or failure of capitalism. The richest person in the world would probably say that capitalism is a great success. As far as the coasts, all life choices involve trade offs.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by sjg007 on Sunday May 01, 2022 @09:22AM (#31224817)
Student loans?
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by donthellbanme on Sunday May 01, 2022 @08:23AM (#31224444)
In most counties in California you are free to buy land.

After that, just expect to pay property taxes unless you have money to build exactly the home they sign off on.

I once was ready to buy a reasonable small piece of land in Bolinas after graduating from college. I should have known the price was too good.

When I called the seller he took pity on me when I told him I wanted to just use it to pitch a tent on until I saved more money.

He said, "Son---you can't even put an blanket on "your" land and take a nap."

Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by beamatronic on Sunday May 01, 2022 @10:14AM (#31225170)
I haven’t tried this, but I am curious if they would allow you to build a garage or storage unit on the property. Is there anything they cannot legally block?
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by malandrew on Sunday May 01, 2022 @10:45AM (#31225420)
I wonder also if there is an obligation to finish construction in a certain time frame. If not you could draw up grandiose plans with an architect and after you get the permit you just build part of it immediately and start living in that part and then take the next 20-30 years to build the rest, if ever.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by yakak on Sunday May 01, 2022 @11:05AM (#31225598)
You generally have to get a certificate of inspection when the work in a permit is complete and a number of things are technically illegal before then.
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by toraway1234 on Sunday May 01, 2022 @10:12AM (#31225155)
Land of the free?
Re:The confounding politics of camping in America by throwaway0a5e on Sunday May 01, 2022 @06:27PM (#31229338)
The west coast is only really representative of the west coast.