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Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by m_eiman on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @08:49AM (#31179208)
While an IR camera is a good tool (and terribly fun to use!), not everyone has one. Almost everyone has another tool that can be nearly as efficient though: a hand.

It's quite easy to use too: if something is warm when you touch it, it's burning through watts. If you expected it to be sleeping, it's either not sleeping or it's very bad at it. Don't forget the AC adapters, they can be worse than the devices they supply.

Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by chrisBob on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @12:15PM (#31181903)
My local library has them available to check out for free! The payback period for buying a Flir camera to do your own energy audit is likely long, but checking one out is pretty reasonable.
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by sidewndr46 on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @09:46AM (#31179826)
In a net heating environment, this is less of an issue than otherwise immediately obvious. A small idle electronic device making a consistent amount of heat just helps heat the house. If electricity is very expensive it would make sense to try and track down the offenders however.
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by m_eiman on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @09:59AM (#31179959)
Hopefully you have another heating system that's more efficient than direct electricity, though!
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by denton-scratch on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @10:12AM (#31180115)
How can any electric heating system be more "efficient" than an inefficient appliance? Inefficiency in an electrical appliance is nothing more than a measure of how good that appliance is at turning electricity into heat.
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by jseutter on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @10:34AM (#31180395)
I had this same thought at one point and eventually learned of heat pumps. Heat pumps move heat from one spot to another, ie from outside your house to inside your house, or the other way. The point is, they move more energy than they consume. So that 1kwh of energy turned into heat by an inefficient electrical appliance could have instead been used to move 5kwh worth of heat into your home by a heat pump.

Heat pumps are more efficient than they used to be (at some point the outside air is too cold for them to work efficiently), so the cold climate where I'm from is just now starting to see them included in new homes.

Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by denton-scratch on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @03:27PM (#31184630)
Yes, I've considered getting a heat pump; for one reason and another, I can't.

It doesn't feel right to talk about the "efficiency" of a heat pump system; talk of "1W in gets you 3W out" isn't right, because you didn't magic those 3W out of thin air. It's more like "4W in gets you 4W out". It seems wrong to say that a heat pump system is "400% efficient".

I thought efficiency was a measure of how much of the work[0] going into a machine is transformed into the intended output work. I suppose you could say that this heat delivery machine is inefficient if a lot of the input work is expended on producing torque, or raising heavy stuff. But even that eventually turns into heat; just in the wrong place.

[0] I hope I'm using "work" and "machine" in the technical sense, so that "work" means displacement against a force, and a "machine" is any device for converting work from one form to another. Effiency is well-defined for that kind of machine: it's just the ratio of work in to work out, the output being what you want; so "efficiency" intrinsically depends on what your intentions are for your machine. .

Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by Sohcahtoa82 on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @06:14PM (#31186502)
> It doesn't feel right to talk about the "efficiency" of a heat pump system; talk of "1W in gets you 3W out" isn't right, because you didn't magic those 3W out of thin air. It's more like "4W in gets you 4W out". It seems wrong to say that a heat pump system is "400% efficient".

Those 3W didn't come out of thin air, it came from outside air.

1W of energy going into the heat pump causes 4W of heat energy to get moved from outside your house to the inside of your house.

That's the key thing to take note of. Traditional resistive heating works by turning electrical energy into heat energy directly. Heat pumps move heat energy the same way an A/C unit does, it just moves it the other way.

Essentially, a heat pump is just an A/C unit with the evaporator and the condenser flipped.

Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by zarzavat on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @05:44PM (#31186196)
All heaters are 100% efficient in a closed system. However, your house is not a closed system. It’s a spatial region of an open system. In this context it makes sense to talk about efficiency as being lower or greater than 100%.
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by _carbyau_ on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:10AM (#31188967)
I wish this were made evident to the hoteliers with bar fridges kept in sealed cupboards...
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by systoll on Thursday April 28, 2022 @12:43AM (#31188818)
> you didn't magic those 3W out of thin air.

No magic, but you are pulling those 3W out of the outside air.

You can use the industry term 'Co-efficient of performance' to avoid any possible ambiguity, but it's just the same thing with a different name.

Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by Freestyler_3 on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @04:07PM (#31185080)
The efficiency is higher than input because the electricity is only used to transfer heat from one spot to another. This is when the gas gets compressed, to get to the condensing stage at the high pressure. (+after burn for optimal efficiency)
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by shagie on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @10:55AM (#31180664)
Another one of my "came across this in YouTube" things (started with the design of a hurricane lantern) Why Heat Pumps are Immensely Important Right Now - https://youtu.be/MFEHFsO-XSI

The key is the Coefficient of performance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance

Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by sp332 on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @10:37AM (#31180431)
If your electricity comes from natural gas, it would be more efficient to burn the gas on-site for heat than to burn it to generate electricity, distribute the electricity, and then turn it back to heat.
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by totoglazer on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @12:25PM (#31182070)
Most efficient to burn the gas for electricity and use that to power a heat pump.
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by sidewndr46 on Friday April 29, 2022 @10:30AM (#31205630)
It'd be far simpler and more efficient to use a reciprocating engine to drive a heatpump via a rotating shaft. As a bonus, you could capture the exhaust from the engine with a heat exchanger and use that to heat the house as well.
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by shagie on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @10:58AM (#31180713)
Yes...ish.

However, consider the greater performance scales with generators combined with the amount of useful heat that one gets out of a heat pump can be better than converting the natural gas to heat locally - even with losses on the grid.

The key is that a heat pump doesn't convert electricity to heat (as a resistive heater) but rather moves heat from one spot (outside) to inside with great efficiency.

Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by sp332 on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @11:02AM (#31180755)
Yes, but the comment I'm replying to is about resistive heating from inefficient appliances.
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by KiranRao0 on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @10:28AM (#31180318)
A heat pump. Instead of using power to heat a room, you're using a (relatively) small amount of power to move heat from outside into the room.
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by electroly on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @10:38AM (#31180438)
The others mentioned heat pumps but I'll mention that the person you replied to never said "electric" and is likely referring to gas heating.
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by markus92 on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @10:18AM (#31180186)
A heat pump?
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by mort96 on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @01:25PM (#31182988)
In addition to what other people are saying, there's also district heating: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating Heat can be generated efficiently in some centralized location (from geothermal heat, power plant waste heat, solar, or whatever) and then distributed to nearby homes.

There's lots of ways to heat homes in ways which use way less than 1 joule of electricity for 1 joule of heat.

Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by sidewndr46 on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @10:41AM (#31180484)
If you had a heat pump, it would be more effective to run that for sure.
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by _Algernon_ on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @12:11PM (#31181831)
How can heating be inefficient?
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by robonerd on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @03:02PM (#31184323)
Besides the matter of heat pumps which others have covered, there is also the matter of how good your heating system is at getting heat to where you actually need it.

A PC under your desk will keep your toes warm, and maybe with warm toes you don't really mind the rest of the house being at 10 C / 50 F. With such space heater, you can turn down the thermostat for the entire house and only heat the parts you care about most. Furthermore there are radiative space heaters which direct infrared energy to a specific part of the room using a reflective dish, instead of heating the entire room using convection. In large rooms, radiative space heater can keep you feeling warm while using much less energy than a heatpump would require to heat the whole room.

Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by mort96 on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @01:32PM (#31183099)
By generating only 1 joule of heat per 1 joule of electricity used. There are lots of much more efficient ways to heat homes.
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by londons_explore on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @10:16AM (#31180160)
In most of the world electrical heat is about 3x as expensive as the next cheapest heating (gas, coal, oil, heat pump or wood)
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by PaulHoule on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @10:01AM (#31179991)
In the summer though heating the house is a bad thing. Either you are making your house hotter or you're making the air conditioner work harder to remove it.
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by esaym on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @10:30AM (#31180366)
Even better, just go to a pawn shop or ebay and get a used current clamp meter for cheap. Then pull the cover off of your circuit breaker box in your house and check the current draw on each and every wire.
Re:No, you can’t save £30 per year by switching off your “st... by giantrobot on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @02:16PM (#31183715)
> Almost everyone has another tool that can be nearly as efficient though: a hand.

I've found the IR camera works much better than my hand for things like switching power supplies. They'll be glowing in IR while being cool to the touch even when no device is plugged into them. While each might not be a ton of power I tended to just leave them plugged in all the time.