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Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by cloutchaser on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @10:08AM (#31167657)
Ok this is very nice, but as someone who was also bullied but is from a country that's been invaded at least 5 times by various empires in the last 1000 years, every gun ever made that wasn't used to feed people - was also made so that my ancestors could defend themselves against some king or dictator who wanted to invade other countries.

You can either defend yourself, and possibly survive, or you can die. That's generally the choice throughout history, because hardly any country has ever always been the aggressor.

Violence is at the root of all human existence. To deny it is to live in a fantasy land. In the end violence is what rules, because if you are weak at some point someone stronger will rule over you. That doesn't mean a violent person will always rule, because 2 peaceful collaborators can usually take down a violent ruler, but it still means that at the root of it whoever can dominate the other in some way will win.

And this isn't unique to humans of course, it's how it is in nature and most tribal animals.

Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by gcheong on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @10:28AM (#31167888)
He’s not saying no military expenditure should occur but it has to be in balance with other things. In the US, where our military more often than not is used imperialistically rather than purely defensively, while the poor are allowed to starve or work for less than living wages, homeless suffer on the streets from mental illness, people are allowed to drown in medical or school debt, and where we got caught with our pants down in a pandemic when we should have been the most ready nation on earth, suddenly spending ever increasing amounts to defend ourselves from some imagined future threat doesn’t make much sense.
Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by cloutchaser on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @10:35AM (#31167987)
Take it from someone who's non US and so isn't caught up in self guilt - the US is a much more passive military superpower than almost any superpower in history.

I really don't think the US is imperialistic TBH. Just because a few countries got bombed for oil doesn't make you imperialistic. Read a bit of history about what empire building countries/kings/tyrants were actually like.

Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by gcheong on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @10:44AM (#31168097)
It’s not just direct military action by the US it’s also that we support a lot of the current dictators around the world while claiming to be the beacon of democracy. But the whole point of whether we are passive or aggressive is besides the fact that we don’t care properly for the people who are paying for the military that it’s supposedly defends.
Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @12:13PM (#31169292)
> we don’t care properly for the people who are paying for the military that it’s supposedly defends

Close to a century of no war on the homeland, close to two on the mainland; not too shabby. Yes, we have problems. But enemy tanks aren’t one of them.

Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by gcheong on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @12:27PM (#31169486)
How much of a problem would they be if we just spent a bit less?
Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by ThrowawayR2 on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @05:45PM (#31173571)
False economy. The problem with letting predators get the impression that they can take you down is that they start trying to do so (as current events illustrate), causing you to have to spend more on defense anyway.
Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by gcheong on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @07:30PM (#31174459)
False assertion. Does deciding to spend less on military on more on social services give these supposed predators the idea they can take you down when your military is still the largest in the world? Seems like we could probably divert a significant chunk before anyone thinks we're an easy target.
Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by pkaye on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @03:13PM (#31171835)
if we go that route I think we would have to allow some time for other countries to arm themselves because they rely on US assurances, bases, weapons for their security. Right now a whole bunch of small countries are asking the US to have bases troops, nuclear weapons in their countries because all the conflicts going on.
Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by FpUser on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @12:54PM (#31169858)
>"Just because a few countries got bombed for oil doesn't make you imperialistic."

If you bomb country for oil it makes you a fucking bandit and war criminal.

Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by trevorboaconstr on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @01:08PM (#31170119)
Oh goodness, here we go. What country did the US bomb for oil?

We went into Afghanistan because the Taliban harbored the organization that committed 9/11 and refused to turn them over.

We went into Iraq primarily because a group of Neoconservatives were drunk on the unipolar moment and believed the US could spread democracy at the barrel of a gun and remake the Middle East. Haliburton definitely made money in Iraq, but we did not go in for oil.

The invasion of Iraq was based on the fact that Bush and Cheney were neoconservatives, which means essentially liberal Trotskyites. They believed that human rights were universal and it was legitimate to uphold them by force. So in their logic, Saddam Hussein was a bad a guy and Iraq was a good candidate for showing that the US can start rolling into places and giving the people their freedom, just like that.

The basic assumption was that stable democracies grow on their own once you get rid of the dictator. So show up to a country, get the dictator, rinse and repeat. Now you have nice democracies all throughout the world. In that view, not invading is immoral because it means you’re condemning millions of Iraqis to live under Saddam’s dictatorship.

The basic lesson from this is that countries don’t act out of material self-interest as much as armchair cynics assume. Instead they’re frequently operated on an emotional or ideological basis.

Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by FpUser on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @03:58PM (#31172411)
>"We went into Iraq primarily because a group of Neoconservatives were drunk on the unipolar moment and believed the US could spread democracy at the barrel of a gun and remake the Middle East"

Ah sorry. All valid and noble reasons. No crime here. Dead, mutilated, starved, displaced and otherwise abused Iraqis salute you.

Also message outlining your honorable goals should be directed to the parent to whom I was replying. Was not my claim that the US did it for oil.

Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by trevorboaconstr on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @04:23PM (#31172687)
Uh, mind the quip, I’m actually trying to frame the invasion as more unhinged given the solely ideological bent it was predicated on. At least invading for oil would have made sense.
Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by pkaye on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @03:15PM (#31171865)
Most of the oil companies now in Iraq are non US. A bulk of the oil in Iraq goes to asian countries.
Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by rayiner on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @10:30AM (#31167907)
> You can either defend yourself, and possibly survive, or you can die. That's generally the choice throughout history, because hardly any country has ever always been the aggressor.

Absolutely. When my home country declared independence, Pakistan engaged in genocide to stop it. Having been disarmed the British, the independence fighters had to steal Pakistani weapons: https://www.thedailystar.net/backpage/bangladesh-liberation-...

> Most of the weapons used by the Mukti Bahini were taken from defeated soldiers. Then, there were homemade bombs, knives and even instances of the use of bows and arrows…

> The better equipped Pakistani army used imported guns, automatic weapons, mortars, artillery trucks, armoured personnel carriers, tanks, airplanes, and ammunition.

Eventually, Bengali regiments of the Pakistan military defected. Even then, independence wouldn’t have been possible without India joining the war against Pakistan.

Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by sofixa on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @10:53AM (#31168222)
> You can either defend yourself, and possibly survive, or you can die.

That is just untrue. Historically, especially before the advent of nationalism, national hatred, ethnocentrism and ethnic cleansing ( so from mid to end 19th century to mid 20th century) conquest very rarely meant death. It was a different set of powerful and rich men on top, but the peasants were usually.. not really impacted that much. They were certainly more impacted when the war passed through their lands ( plunder, rape, etc.). Slaughtering the enemy civilians was rare and only done in specific cases ( like the Mongols, sone Vikings, earlier Anglo-Saxons).

Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by cloutchaser on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @12:47PM (#31169759)
What in the absolute world have you been reading?

What about neighboring tribes? You think they always traded berries and had a happy life? Do you know anything about Native American tribe life before Europeans arrived? How about African tribes even recently?

What are you even on about? Nationalism has nothing to do with violence when compared with any other system of organisation.

But just take a look at chimps and how they treat someone from another tribe (hint: they literally tear them apart). Do chimps have nationalism?

God this “everything was ok before western culture” crap is getting really tiring and ridiculous

Re:World military expenditure passes $2T for first time by sofixa on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @02:26PM (#31171190)
Slaughtering the conquered enemy was the exception, not the norm, at least throughout Eurasia with whose history I'm most familiar. Was that the norm in the Americas? Considering the negligible amounts of historical data preserved about many of civilisations there, can one even make such a sweeping conclusion? Even if that were the case, significantly more people lived in Eurasia so that would still be the exception for the generic human population.

It has nothing to do "western culture", but with the evolution of warfare from the "Cabinet wars" to nationalistic "total wars". Colonial wars were often with brutal consequences, but again, massively slaughtering the native population was the exception, not the norm ( Herero and Namaqua genocide). The vast majority of humans conquered in the last few centuries weren't slaughtered en masse for the sake of it.