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Re:Eminent Scientist Says Climate Activists Need to Get Real by lotsofpulp on Monday April 25, 2022 @06:16PM (#31161460)
> Well, we changed people’s consumption by letting them have their S.U.V.s. We can change people the other way. We could say, To save the planet people should drive smaller cars. If you drive a smaller car, you get a rebate. If you drive an S.U.V., you pay a surcharge. There are many ways to go around bringing rational goals. You don’t have to invent new things to solve these problems. This promise of inventions — 3-D printing! Houses will be printed! Cars will be printed! Have you seen any printed houses and cars? We live in this world of exaggerated promises and delusional pop science.

The solution has always been to make gas $20 per gallon or $30 per gallon or whatever it needs to be to force people to use dense housing and public transit or cycling/walking.

Problem is not all the countries are going to do it, especially the ones who have not been living the high life for the past 60 years, so it is politically dead in the water. And hence you end up with exaggerated promises and delusional pop science, stuff that is politically palatable.

Re:Eminent Scientist Says Climate Activists Need to Get Real by Dove on Monday April 25, 2022 @11:55PM (#31163783)
Be careful with the conviction that you are right, and others are wrong, to the degree that you are willing to force people to do things. Forcing people to do things for their own good has a terrible historical track record in terms of doing damage, and people who do it, no matter how sure they are, often find out later they were wrong after all.

You may not think raising gas prices is the sort of force that might incur damage, but making life more difficult and expensive is inherently costly, and those costs are real -- settling for jobs that are poor fits, education that is missed, businesses that fail, needed care that becomes economically impractical, opportunities missed due to expenses. A sacrifice that means little to you may be tragic in someone else's life.

Re:Eminent Scientist Says Climate Activists Need to Get Real by lotsofpulp on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @09:10AM (#31167034)
>You may not think raising gas prices is the sort of force that might incur damage

I do not think that at all. There will be lots of damage. That is the whole point, we cannot effectively reduce energy consumption without reducing consumption which is moving less mass less distances.

Either less humans period fly to Tahiti for honeymoons, or more humans live a much lower quality of life (what is considered quality of life today).

Hence the political intractability of the problem.

Re:Eminent Scientist Says Climate Activists Need to Get Real by funcDropShadow on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @03:11AM (#31164842)
> it needs to be to force people to use dense housing and public transit or cycling/walking.

I never understood why people believe living in dense cities is good for the environment. Could you explain why you think so? I get the transit argument, but imho everything else points to the opposite. Cities are warmer than rural areas. They cannot store the water from rain, they have to transport it away. They have problems with air pollution, not only because of cars. They disconnect people with nature, because they cannot experience nature day to day. The air is much better outside of cities. You can't buy healthy food around the corner from the farmer that produced it, etc.

Re:Eminent Scientist Says Climate Activists Need to Get Real by arthur2e5 on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @07:08AM (#31166009)
Dense cities consistently produces lower per-capita carbon emissions. This has to do with transit, with transportation of material, with houses (yes, townhouses too!) not having as many walls to lose heat from, etc.

We can and have designed cities that properly handle rainfall. The issue is not density, but the lack of water-permeable surfaces. Suburban parking lots and wide freeways cause the same issues and on a larger scale due to the low density.

The lack of nature is, again, solved not just once. In Amsterdam they have dense urban areas right next to actual farms with cows, free-range ones. Again, you save space for nature by going high density. Compared to sprawling out with cul-de-sacs a you have more people getting closer to nature more often. Same argument for farmers traveling to town.

(I do sense a bit of mismatch between conceptions of non-dense-city living spaces. You seem to be talking about something that combines the environment of rural areas with the convenience of suburbia, but these two seldom co-exist without wasting a lot of tax money on maintenance…)

Re:Eminent Scientist Says Climate Activists Need to Get Real by throwaway-blaze on Monday April 25, 2022 @07:46PM (#31162323)
Also, if not all the countries are going to do it, you'll impoverish the countries that do it and leave the ones who don't to take over economically.
Re:Eminent Scientist Says Climate Activists Need to Get Real by yucky on Monday April 25, 2022 @08:31PM (#31162617)
>to force people to use dense housing

After seeing how pandemics work in densely populated areas, nope. Never. That has ship has sailed.

Re:Eminent Scientist Says Climate Activists Need to Get Real by lotsofpulp on Monday April 25, 2022 @09:10PM (#31162860)
The other option is reducing number of humans. Whichever way we want to cut it, less mass needs to be moved less distance to meaningfully reduce consumption of fossil fuels, and that is proportional to number of humans and the distances between them.

Or the miraculous discovery of an energy / locomotion mechanism that does not have the negative side effects of current known sources.

Re:Eminent Scientist Says Climate Activists Need to Get Real by giraffe_lady on Monday April 25, 2022 @09:00PM (#31162791)
Did densely populated areas overall fair much worse when controlling for poverty? I'm not being snarky I genuinely don't know, the last time I heard about this it wasn't conclusive.

Anyway we may have left ourselves little choice. I certainly don't think we're still within the window of "this is worse for everyone but better for me" being acceptable.

Re:Eminent Scientist Says Climate Activists Need to Get Real by yucky on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @06:51PM (#31174147)
Communicable diseases spread quicker in densely populated areas, this is known.
Re:Eminent Scientist Says Climate Activists Need to Get Real by dijonman2 on Monday April 25, 2022 @07:24PM (#31162158)
Industry needs to change, the small emissions per person will barely do anything other than reduce quality of life.
Re:Eminent Scientist Says Climate Activists Need to Get Real by lotsofpulp on Monday April 25, 2022 @07:29PM (#31162202)
Industry would change, they would also be subject to drastically higher fossil fuel prices. Not to mention people would have to consume less stuff since they have less space. Not to mention the reduced purchasing power of everyone since they would be spending more on fossil fuels.

The reduction in quality of life would be inevitable, hence the political unviability.

Re:Eminent Scientist Says Climate Activists Need to Get Real by mechagodzilla on Monday April 25, 2022 @08:20PM (#31162550)
Both do. Individuals need to stop directly burning fossil fuels, AND we need to switch our industrial and power generation infrastructure. There’s plenty of work to go around.