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Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by Nathanba on Monday April 25, 2022 @11:07AM (#31155924)
it really doesn't require such extreme examples. The EU will also ask for all kinds of censorship. Germany just made wearing the 'Z' illegal, meaning that any kind of pro-russian viewpoint will have to be censored. There is only one country on earth that has decent free speech and it's the US
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by V__ on Monday April 25, 2022 @02:44PM (#31158993)
> Germany just made wearing the 'Z' illegal

Technically true, but without context, easily misunderstood. It's illegal in Germany to promote or advocate for illegal acts. Since Russia attack on Ukraine is an illegal act, it's illegal to promote or advocate for the war, and this includes the Z symbol.

Also "incitement to illegal conduct and imminent lawless action" is also illegal in the U.S. it just gets interpreted a little different.

> There is only one country on earth that has decent free speech and it's the US

Except for nearly all the other countries in Europe, Canade etc.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by freeflight on Monday April 25, 2022 @03:35PM (#31159550)
> Technically true, but without context, easily misunderstood.

It's practically true, and there is nothing to "misunderstand" there, unless you try to create such a misunderstanding by claiming this comes out of some kind of "general ban", when it's actually a very specific ban German states started putting in place [0].

Case in point;

> Since Russia attack on Ukraine is an illegal act, it's illegal to promote or advocate for the war, and this includes the Z symbol.

The US attack on Iraq was also illegal, yet that didn't lead to German states banning the V symbol for Victory or any other US symbols, or US media, getting banned.

Which is not the only example of how most about this is purely political and not in any way based on impartial interpretation and application of laws for human rights and "justice" [1].

[0] https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2022-03/z-symbol-rus...

[1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/12/08/germany-could-have-deli...

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by V__ on Monday April 25, 2022 @03:52PM (#31159702)
> some kind of "general ban", when it's actually a very specific ban German states started putting in place [0].

But it does, it's just that to prevent a misuse, any ban on symbols (which are used to advocate or promote something criminal) a separate law is needed to prevent misuse and allow judiciary overview. That's an additional protection.

> US attack on Iraq was also illegal

That's a fair point (and I agree on the illegality), and I would actually like this to be challenged in the court and see a decision. However, the Russian flag is not banned, just the Z symbol as a symbol for this war. If there was a symbol for U.S. drone strike or the invasion of Iraq we could be talking about something more concrete.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by freeflight on Monday April 25, 2022 @05:06PM (#31160604)
> However, the Russian flag is not banned, just the Z symbol as a symbol for this war.

The Z symbol exists for the same reason why the V symbol existed on US military vehicles in Iraq; It's mainly a friendly fire and unit identifier as Russia and Ukraine use a lot of the same mechanized equipment.

While the Anglo V also stands for V as in "Victory" and even has a hand sign associated with it, it's a whole campaign dating back to WWII and Winston Churchill [0].

Me and many of my schoolmates would flash it at US military convoys passing our bus at school trips in the 90s. The soldiers were always super happy about it, while we thought we were signaling "peace" to them.

Ultimately the V would morph into a Chevron with different orientations to distinguish what military group a vehicle belongs to [0], but there is a whole propagandist history behind the Anglo use of V, overlapping very much in the same ways of military necessity as the Russian Z does.

[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20150708011459/https://time.com/...

[1] https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-significance-of-the-invert...

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by pdabbadabba on Monday April 25, 2022 @03:26PM (#31159475)
Based on what I'm reading here, U.S. law more than just a "little" different from German law in this regard. The word "imminent" in the U.S. standard does a huge amount of work, restricting liability to things like direct incitement (e.g., "Get him!"). And the "Z" itself is a perfect example, since it would almost certainly be considered protected speech in the U.S.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by V__ on Monday April 25, 2022 @03:41PM (#31159603)
I'm not trying to say there are no differences, but I find the exaggerations tiresome. When companies or people are muzzled by National Security Letters, whistleblowers jailed and companies bankrupt people with SLAP suits for saying something they don't like, that's somehow not a restriction on free speech in the U.S.

However, when a country doesn't allow you to promote or advocate for war crimes, then it's "only the U.S. has free speech", go figure.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by pdabbadabba on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:11PM (#31159917)
For better or worse, free-speech ideology in the U.S. is very focused on avoiding 1) prior restraint and 2) content/viewpoint discrimination by the government. So a lot of the things you identified tend not to strike people steeped in American legal thinking as free speech problems on the same order as categorically banning certain symbols or messages. I happen to think that this focus is correct, but I could be convinced otherwise. I don't think its at all obvious what the best approach is.

But I agree with your more general point that Americans should be a bit less smug about the superiority of their free-speech rules.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by V__ on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:21PM (#31160064)
I agree with you (and thanks for the nice discussion) and think it's really a different cultural interpretation. I would say that most Germans would say free speech is a value in general, which should be upheld by the government and for example the work place (and there are laws to protect people there) whereas the U.S. is more focus on the government part (just an observation).

I think both have their historic reasons, place and differences.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by xyzzyz on Monday April 25, 2022 @03:58PM (#31159760)
Okay, so imagine Germany does not allow gay marriage (not so hard, considering it did not do that until 2017, and had no legal recognition of same sex partnership at all before 2001). This would make gay marriage an illegal act. Do you think Germany then should be allowed to criminally prosecute people for advocating for the illegal act of gay marriage?

Ability to advocate for illegal, repugnant, or offensive ideas or acts is in fact the entire point of free speech, so being able to do it is an essential right.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by V__ on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:14PM (#31159961)
That's a very good observation. I should've made sure to say that not all illegal acts are created equal, and those which are illegal to advocate for, are specially listed [1].

In summary, those basically are high treason, murder/manslaughter, assault, robbery, counterfeiting, creating fire/explosions/radiation, destroying/interference in infrastructure (planes etc.).

[1] https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/138.html

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by rightbyte on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @07:40AM (#31178668)
"High treason" seems arbitrary broad. E.g. advocating forming a republic from a monarchy is high treason or any form of separatism.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by DocTomoe on Friday April 29, 2022 @12:53PM (#31207611)
> This would make gay marriage an illegal act.

Back in the day, noone prevented same-sex partners to marry in Germany in front of a religious congregation which allowed that according to their rules. They just couldn't get the marriage certificate from the State.

As for the illegality: it would make gay marriage an impossible act, because the legal framework to marry two men (or two women) from a legal standpoint (which includes the marriage certificates and the rights and responsibilities associated with it) would not exist. A public official who wrote a marriage certificate for a same-sex couple in 1999 would not have committed a crime, he or she would just have written an invalid form which would have had no legal bearing (and the public official would probably have been reprimanded).

Something you cannot do by definition cannot be illegal.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by thereddaikon on Monday April 25, 2022 @03:18PM (#31159389)
>Also "incitement to illegal conduct and imminent lawless action" is also illegal in the U.S. it just gets interpreted a little different.

I'd say its more than a little different. The US definition is pretty narrow and immediate. You can't get on a megaphone and tell a crowd to go kill some guy right now.

>Except for nearly all the other countries in Europe, Canada etc.

It's all down to opinion of course but those nations do not have sensible freedom of speech. They pay lip service to the idea but will gladly jail people for saying things the government doesn't like but otherwise harmless or victim less.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by V__ on Monday April 25, 2022 @03:31PM (#31159507)
> The US definition is pretty narrow and immediate.

Except for exceptions, such like making some kind of threat against the president.

> will gladly jail people for saying things the government doesn't like but otherwise harmless or victim less.

Can you show me such examples for lets say Germany?

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by sebzim4500 on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:42PM (#31160331)
I'm not the guy you replied to but this springs to mind.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/15/angela-merkel-...

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by hef19898 on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:47PM (#31160388)
Charges were dropped and the law was changed. The case was handled really bad so by Merkel.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by V__ on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:59PM (#31160513)
Also, the law was kind of an old remnant, so most legal scholars were sure the law would have been declared unconstitutional if challenged.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by matkoniecz on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:02PM (#31159814)
What about National Security Letters?
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by freeflight on Monday April 25, 2022 @03:37PM (#31159561)
> Technically true, but without context, easily misunderstood.

It's practically true, and there is nothing to "misunderstand" there, unless you try to create such a misunderstanding by claiming this comes out of some kind of "general ban", when it's actually a very specific ban German states started putting in place only recently [0].

Case in point;

> Since Russia attack on Ukraine is an illegal act, it's illegal to promote or advocate for the war, and this includes the Z symbol.

The US attack on Iraq was also illegal, yet that didn't lead to German states banning the V symbol for Victory or any other US symbols, or US state media getting banned.

Which is not the only example of how most about this is purely political and not in any way based on impartial interpretation and application of laws for "human rights and justice" [1].

[0] https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2022-03/z-symbol-rus...

[1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/12/08/germany-could-have-deli...

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by tekknik on Monday April 25, 2022 @11:00PM (#31163523)
As a counter point, and a more accurate apples comparison, it’s not illegal to wear a swastika in the US. Nor promote support for what Russia is currently doing. You’ve pointed out that Germany can make something illegal to control speech, which is not the same as promoting riots or planning the demise of the gov.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by DocTomoe on Friday April 29, 2022 @12:46PM (#31207521)
> Except for nearly all the other countries in Europe, Canade etc.

None of them has free speech. Free speech is a binary thing - either speech is free, or it isn't. The moment you face criminal lawsuits for saying the wrong things, you do not live under a Free Speech regime. To my knowledge, the only country which does this correctly is the US.

Many countries claim to have Freedom of Opinion - which is a different concept from Freedom of Speech. Under a "Freedom of Opinion" regime, you can hold any opinion that you like - but some you need to keep to yourself.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by raxxorraxor on Monday April 25, 2022 @11:21AM (#31156133)
I hope nobody listens to the German government on speech rules and nobody should. There should be a rule that you have to make it through 1 century without creating 2 dictatorships before you can even say anything about allowed or forbidden speech. And no, none of these dictatorships had anything close to free expression like some people hilariously and tragically suggested.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by mmmmmbop on Monday April 25, 2022 @12:20PM (#31157012)
Which are the two dictatorships you are thinking about?

Your proposed rule might be unpractical, since it would disallow the U.S. government from from saying anything about free speech for at least 30 more years (see [1] and [2]).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27%C3%A...

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by esyir on Monday April 25, 2022 @02:14PM (#31158629)
As far as I can tell, those didn't look like the USA applying martial law to large swathes of its populace.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by mmmmmbop on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:05PM (#31159844)
That's true, but also not the criteria the original poster proposed.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by umanwizard on Monday April 25, 2022 @01:36PM (#31158138)
They presumably meant the Nazi period (1933-1945) and the period of SED rule in East Germany (1949-1990).
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by robonerd on Monday April 25, 2022 @02:56PM (#31159144)
It's a sliver over a hundred years ago now, but Germany was also under a military dictatorship lead by Hindenburg and Ludendorff from 1916 through 1918.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by hef19898 on Monday April 25, 2022 @03:19PM (#31159392)
Free speech was all but dead between 1914 and 1918 everywhere. Not saying Luddendorff wasn't defacto military dictator, he was, just pointing out that this had no additional negative impact on free speech during this time.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by raxxorraxor on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @02:51AM (#31164730)
I was talking about the Nazi and the GDR regime. I am aware that US foreign policy is controversial, but never did the US murder people on a comparable scale.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by kmeisthax on Monday April 25, 2022 @03:32PM (#31159520)
The current set of German speech rules were specifically designed to keep one of those two dictatorships from reasserting control once the Americans and Soviets stopped looking. They didn't write the rules themselves; the Allies did.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by raxxorraxor on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @02:46AM (#31164704)
Before Hitler came to power laws against "hate speech" were already in place from the century before. He used the fact to depict himself as an outcast until he came to power and curbed freedom of speech to a far more significant degree.

Suffice to say that censorship was pretty prevalent through the history of Germany and it did not provide the advantages some had hoped.

And the allies did censor speech that is true.

> The representative of the Allied forces admitted that the order in principle was no different from the Nazi book burnings, although unlike the burnings, the measure was seen as a temporary part of the denazification program.

In that case the measure can be understood as the country was full of Nazi propaganda and alternative media was more or less dead. But it was indeed temporary and the Allies also wrote Germany's constitution, which explicitly forbid censorship.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by hef19898 on Monday April 25, 2022 @12:25PM (#31157092)
You should go through at least one to be properly able to judgr free speech and its limitations and risks.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by mr_toad on Monday April 25, 2022 @09:20PM (#31162933)
> There should be a rule that you have to make it through 1 century without creating 2 dictatorships before you can even say anything about allowed or forbidden speech.

Lies and incitements to violence were a significant factor in Hitler being able to assume emergency powers, so you could argue that Germany learned a valuable lesson from one of its dictators.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by raxxorraxor on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @02:53AM (#31164740)
On the contrary, he did get banned from participation multiple times and used that fact to picture himself a martyr.