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Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by jweir on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @05:44PM (#31103445)
You do not pay market rate for electricity.

Texas does allow consumers to pay market rate for electricity, you may have heard about last winter people getting bills in the several thousands of dollars when prices spiked.

CAISO was 97% renewable for only a moment, not the entire day.

The 3rd was a Sunday, not a peak day.

And the average price for energy for the day was $30.77 (day head) $27.1 (real time) for TH_SP15_GEN-APND (per MWh)

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by samkater on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @05:55PM (#31103562)
My understanding, to put it in AWS EC2 pricing terms, is that we do not pay the market "spot" rate for electricity (variable, often less than what you might pay elsewhere, but could spike up) - which is what Texas allowed. Typically we pay the "on demand" rate which is fixed. Large energy users probably negotiate "reserved" pricing.

My point being, we pay the market rate, those massive hikes are just built-in over a long period of time.

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by ajross on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @06:03PM (#31103657)
That only works if the demand curve (the price the market will bear at given levels of shortage) and the cost curve (the actual price to produce the energy) match up.

In fact they never do, especially in this market. Texas producers weren't spending 100x (or whatever) more to produce that electricity, that spike just reflected the amount that customers who "had to keep the lights on" were willing to bear. In fact total utility costs are basically flat. They didn't hire 100x more employees or work 100x more hours to get things running again. They didn't have to build 100x more substations, etc...

And that's why spot pricing is a disaster for consumers. It creates a perverse incentive for producers to reduce supply.

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by shiftpgdn on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @06:05PM (#31103682)
There are currently no residential consumers in Texas on spot rate plans since the only provider had their license revoked. https://www.cbsnews.com/dfw/news/ercot-shuts-down-wholesale-...
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by selectodude on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @07:41PM (#31104481)
Yeah, after the last catastrophe. They learned a lesson.
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by JamesBarney on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @06:28PM (#31103904)
The economic reason people should be paying 100x the cost to supply is to incentivize people to build spare capacity.
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by notch656a on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @06:40PM (#31103995)
Generally agree although there is something a bit sinister about a market where you don't really know the price until after you've bought the product. IMO giving a utility provider blank check is like raw-dogging cheap hookers every night and then being surprised when your luck runs out.

If people WANT this kind of contract I hope that their consent is an informed one. I'm not one to stop people from engaging in their own reckless behavior.

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by csours on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @08:19PM (#31104718)
The Texas spike was not what customers were willing to bear, the Texas spike was set to the max price by the regulator because they thought the pricing system wasn't working.
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by sangnoir on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @09:00PM (#31104958)
> Texas spike was set to the max price by the regulator...

IIRC, a member of ERCOT who resigned claimed high-ranked state politician(s) pressured the regulator to do set the max price - so it wasn't the independent judgment of the regulator that the system was working; or that this was the solution.

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by notch656a on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @06:31PM (#31103927)
When you have an outage, it's possible the instantaneous cost of electricity is in fact 10x/100x/infinitely more than baseline cost. Looking at it as 100x more employees is the wrong direction. If you're producing 1/100th the electricity for 5 minutes due to power outtages but you still have to pay all your employees during that time, your instantaneous cost (per unit energy) actually are proportionally higher.
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by ajross on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:29AM (#31110737)
Total Texas energy production during the worst part of the crisis last winter was like 60% of maximum though. Most generators were running. If consumer had to pay a 2x premium then no one would have even complained; we'd have all said the system was working.

But that's not how it works, because as I mentioned the demand curve is non-linear. When you have 60% power, yet 60.1% of your capacity needs to go to "must keep the lights on" customers, then prices go to infinity (or in practice to the credit/spending limits of those customers making bids).

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by notch656a on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:59AM (#31111213)
You don't 'need the lights on.' I have lived in multiple third world countries where outages happen regularly if you have electricity at all. This is a failure of customers to adequately prepare and instead playing the victim because of their failures. People knew for years Texas grid was vulnerable, and it's an exquisite display of Darwin Award for those who didn't prepare for it.

Only a moron doesn't keep some sort of off-grid combustibles and cold weather gear on hand, even if you live in the most southern edge of our nation. The customer is to blame for paying, not capitalism.

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by ajross on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:29PM (#31114136)
> You don't 'need the lights on.'

Hospitals do. Street lights do. Network operators do. Just think back to the beginning of the pandemic and how many industries were suddenly discovered to be "essential". You're thinking from the perspective of "can I, personally, suffer a power outage in my own home[1]" and imaginging that "running a civilization" works like that. There are many entities who simply can't stop buying power.

> Only a moron [...]

Please think harder here. It's not remotely as simple as you think it is.

[1] Knowing that you can use your phone to reach effective emergency services in the event of need, of course.

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by notch656a on Thursday April 21, 2022 @07:34PM (#31116493)
Hospitals are 60.1% of capacity? Hospitals have generators, also. Lets not make hypocritical statements about think harder.

>imaginging that "running a civilization" works like tha

And yet many rich civilizations do run just fine 'like that' and many may consider those civilizations just as good as yours. Your statement is simply ethnocentric arrogant elitism.

>Just think back to the beginning of the pandemic and how many industries were suddenly discovered to be "essential".

You're describing tyrants trying to shut down business. Being 'essential' was simply a chosen word of propaganda as part of a tyrannical process to destroy some people's line of work while favoring others. We are discussing free-market pricing and their interconnection with power disruptions and acts of god.

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by shiftpgdn on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @06:04PM (#31103667)
You should keep in mind that only one provider allowed end users to pay spot rate and ERCOT revoked their license to operate after the freeze where power rates went to $4000/MWh. The average Texan (excluding people in East Texas who are on the Eastern power grid, and people in Austin) buy their energy on a 12 month contract from an intermediary who THEN negotiates a flat rate or gambles on beating the sold contracts on spot.
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by hunterb123 on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @07:33PM (#31104440)
That's not accurate. 99% of people are on fixed rate plans.

Mainly it was one company, Griddy, that sold gullible people variable rate plans.

Griddy was then banned as it failed to provide people power during this time, suggesting their users to switch.

Most Texans are on fixed rate plans via TXU, Reliant, or the many other normal providers.

It was suggested to pass a law preventing variable rate plans that gamble like that, but I'm not sure the state of that.

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by lesuorac on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @09:34PM (#31105157)
What was Griddy telling gullible people that wasn't the truth? As far as I've seen, they've been completely honest about their pricing.

> [Griddy] does warn customers, however, that the wholesale price is capped by state regulators at $9 a kilowatt-hour. [1]

It's not Griddys fault that Texas doesn't prepare for winter storms that hit the state once per decade. Griddy doesn't produce electricity. Griddy doesn't build power lines. Griddy did however get customers power and thats why many of them were upset about how much the state set the wholesale price at.

[1]: https://www.caller.com/story/news/local/texas/state-bureau/2...

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by hunterb123 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:09AM (#31110441)
Their page downplayed the risks of variable pricing and their process during the ordeal was unprofessional.

It was a 100 year freeze, not a decade one. Never in my life until then did we have longer than 2 days of snow/ice.

Most of us don't insulate our pipes for that reasoning, though flexpiping is common to help against minor freezing.

Same reason as to why a lot of people don't have A/Cs on the West Coast.

Yeah the grid should have been winterized, but the pricing problem for customers was entirely on Griddy.

I have a question, are you from Texas?

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by lesuorac on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:51PM (#31111918)
> Their page downplayed the risks of variable pricing and their process during the ordeal was unprofessional.

That's rather unspecific. As far as I've seen the risk of 9k/MW always comes up in articles about Griddy (even pre-2021) and even happened to customers prior to 2021. And before the storm they notified customers that they should "switch providers" due to expected high prices.

The 2021 storm could be a 1/100 year but a non-trival winter storm hits Texas every 10 years. Letting pipes burst due to an extreme event can be a valid strategy but just be honest that the plan is that.

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/05/us/05storm.html

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by m463 on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @07:19PM (#31104314)
> You do not pay market rate for electricity.

however it should be ... vaguely ... related.

In california it is not. it's easy to pay 40-50 cents/Kwh (~$500/MWh)