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Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by tannhaeuser on Monday April 18, 2022 @03:16AM (#31068195)
Missing a reflection about how abundance of F/OSS has pushed us towards SaaS as one of the few places left to make a living from pure software dev, and the oligopolies arising out of it. What about Linux (Android) being used as the prime spyware vector, and Linux being used for cloud lock-in (k8s et al)?

Also missing a discussion about the role of open standards as opposed to open implementations, such as POSIX/LSB, picture and A/V formats for personal storage and streaming, standards for messaging, and the absence of a GNU/Browser despite the presence of so-called web standards.

Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by fsflover on Monday April 18, 2022 @03:23AM (#31068232)
> What about Linux (Android) being used as the prime spyware vector

To deal with that, consider using GNU/Linux phone Librem 5 recommended by the FSF: https://www.fsf.org/givingguide.

> and Linux being used for cloud lock-in

What do you want to discuss here? There is always a possibility to use tools for the evil. Non-free software is used for that, too (much more).

Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by jdbernard on Monday April 18, 2022 @07:52AM (#31069526)
I've been waiting for my Librem 5 (that I paid for) for four years...
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by fsflover on Monday April 18, 2022 @10:26AM (#31071083)
Same here. However they do have a good reason for that now: https://forums.puri.sm/t/i-mx-8m-quad-availability-and-price....
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by jdbernard on Monday April 18, 2022 @03:47PM (#31075513)
Right, and I'm actually still OK with it. This was always a "it would be really nice if this was a thing" play on my end. Just calling out that it's not really the option that the parent post implied.
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by fsflover on Monday April 18, 2022 @05:12PM (#31076616)
It's not an option to immediately use the phone, but it's an option to support the change.
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by SkeuomorphicBee on Monday April 18, 2022 @09:17AM (#31070130)
The move thowards SaaS started long before the rise in prominence of F/OSS, it was the creation of the Internet that was the catalyst to the rise of SaaS, nothing to do with the FOSS-vs-Proprietary fight. In fact, in the beginning of the Internet, the first wave of SaaS was all built on top of proprietary solutions, Oracle was the king, Sun Java was the up-and-coming go-to platform.
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by largely_sitting on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:29AM (#31068520)
I would be fine with far less features for a platform that was simpler and standardized. Users seem to be gravitating toward the same, with short form video and a search bar being their main anchors. A reflection on complexity versus free would be nice to see. The more complex a system is, the less free it becomes by virtue of implementation time.
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by hdjjhhvvhga on Monday April 18, 2022 @03:33AM (#31068275)
> Missing a reflection about how abundance of F/OSS has pushed us towards SaaS as one of the few places left to make a living from pure software dev, and the oligopolies arising out of it.

The fundamental reason is the shift towards the web as a platform, not the abundance of Free Software. As for the oligopolies you mention, the process is as democratic as possible with extremely low barrier to entry: many of the current big players weren't millionaires who had to invest piles of money into factories and wait for decades for their dreams to materialize.

> What about Linux (Android) being used as the prime spyware vector, and Linux being used for cloud lock-in (k8s et al)?

I don't believe RMS would object to that, he is not a Linux fanboy and concentrates on Free Software instead.

Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by cxr on Monday April 18, 2022 @01:57PM (#31074195)
Indeed, the mentioned complaints about Android are not in any sense the result of an overadherence to Stallmanist thinking (rather, the opposite...)
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by larodi on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:16AM (#31068461)
At least some people are sane enough to actually reason and try to figure the real challenge (problem) with free software. The thing is not about open or closed source, but open/closed data and standards that surround them. Not the free/not free software, but the things that actually run on your PC and those that not.

And surely using cloud service, no matter built on open or closed or free or not software, will tell very little of the modifications that were done to the service and the packages. Basically I know nothing about the cloud-based mysqls, elastic searches, etc that are provisioned for me by s.o.

Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by jrockway on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:17AM (#31068465)
How does k8s lock you in to the cloud? The idea is that it's a replacement for things like Cloud Formation that really did lock you into AWS.
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by robjan on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:30AM (#31068524)
Isn't Cloud Formation more like Terraform? k8s pretty much abstracts the whole cloud platform and makes it deployable anywhere (theoretically). Although practically there's usually lock-in to some managed services.
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by pmoriarty on Monday April 18, 2022 @03:36AM (#31068285)
"abundance of F/OSS has pushed us towards SaaS as one of the few places left to make a living from pure software dev, and the oligopolies arising out of it. What about Linux (Android) being used as the prime spyware vector, and Linux being used for cloud lock-in (k8s et al)?"

It's not like closed-source software would have prevented any of this.

Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by pjmlp on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:11AM (#31068446)
People actually pay for closed source software, even if piracy might happen.

SaaS is the only way left to force most people to actually pay for the FOSS stuff they leach.

Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by pmoriarty on Monday April 18, 2022 @05:56AM (#31068947)
People actually pay for open source software too.

Take a look at Ardour for an example. Red Hat too.

Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by pjmlp on Monday April 18, 2022 @06:12AM (#31069019)
Indeed, however stuff like CentOS prove how people go out of their way to avoid paying, and how they get pissed off when that option goes away.

I should also note that nowadays Red-Hat belongs to IBM, so there are other forms of funding beyond support contracts for Red-Hat enterprise.

Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by pmoriarty on Monday April 18, 2022 @06:53AM (#31069216)
CentOS was popular, but Red Hat still made billions of dollars in revenue.
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by pjmlp on Monday April 18, 2022 @08:06AM (#31069607)
Not enough, hence why it was acquired and eventually killed, regardless of how Red-Hat might justify their decision.
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by prmoustache on Monday April 18, 2022 @01:15PM (#31073613)
Care to explain which was killed? Neither centos nor redhat.
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by pjmlp on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:57PM (#31076436)
CentOS, have you missed the news?

Yeah there is CentOS Stream now, but that isn't what freeloaders want.

Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by prmoustache on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @02:20AM (#31080161)
> CentOS, have you missed the news?

Alternatives popped up literally days after the annoumcement of centos stream. We got back to original point. If you know the history of rhel and its clones, you surely know they used to be tenth of projects similar to centos, some much more active/reactive. The redhat funding of centos as a perfect rhel clone is more a parenthesis in history than anything.

So in the end freeloaders still get exactly what they want.

> Yeah there is CentOS Stream now, but that isn't what freeloaders want.

I would say that isn't what some freeloaders think they want. All the feedback I get from people deciding to stick to centos stream and trying it out before a potential switch to something else has bern mostly the same: a lot of fuss for nothing, their life hasn't changed and centos is still meeting their needs.

Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by mpol on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:44AM (#31068595)
I don't think "force" is the right word here. More that it's an offer companies can make and customers can choose. Free software and free data are not always a concern of users, lock-in might not be the best choice long-term, but they are not being forced in any way afaik. (edit: initially I mean, after the lock-in there is force of course.)
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by Macha on Monday April 18, 2022 @06:50AM (#31069199)
However, as has been a point of discussion here for the last several years, the SaaS services themselves are often as much "leeches" as the users when it comes to open source.
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by pjmlp on Monday April 18, 2022 @08:05AM (#31069599)
Might happen, however my point was about the SaaS that are from the authors themselves.
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by Macha on Monday April 18, 2022 @08:13AM (#31069661)
Ah, in the case of developer originated SaaS, then sure, doing a SaaS offering rather than donationware might lead to more income for the developer, but I don't think that free software is alone in this - plenty of proprietary software that would once have had fixed boxed releases is now subscription or SaaS based too.

Recurring income is a stronger business model, nobody's denying that, but that doesn't mean it's an improvement for the user or that those producing software with a goal of financial gain would have just released standalone open source software if only free software licenses had been more sympathetic to their needs. Rather, I think if SaaS did not exist, if their first goal is revenue, many of these groups would have just released straight up proprietary software.

Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by pjmlp on Monday April 18, 2022 @09:19AM (#31070155)
When users try to make a living as developers, income becomes something to worry about.
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by Ekaros on Monday April 18, 2022 @07:44AM (#31069482)
Why should people pay for FOSS? Isn't entire point it being free, developed for personal use and shared?
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by jdbernard on Monday April 18, 2022 @07:59AM (#31069564)
If people don't pay for FOSS, how do you expect developers who develop FOSS to feed their families?

The "free" in "Free and Open Source Software" is free as in speech, not free as in beer. We'd like to think that decision to charge or not charge for the product is orthogonal to the decision to make the source code available. In practice there is some interrelation.

But FOSS was never "you can't charge for it."

Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by Ekaros on Monday April 18, 2022 @08:09AM (#31069626)
Do it as hobby in their free time? Maybe work in some other field producing actual physical things during day and then in evenings spend hour or two tinkering with free software? Just like any hobbying artist?
Re:Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement by pjmlp on Monday April 18, 2022 @09:17AM (#31070136)
Like a street performer trying to make it to the end of the month rather.