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Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by iamdbtoo on Sunday April 17, 2022 @01:43PM (#31062644)
Yeah, that's kind of how this country markets itself. Being able to afford a home and a family on a regular worker's pay is literally part of "The American Dream."
Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by pempem on Sunday April 17, 2022 @02:23PM (#31062979)
I've thought a lot about this, esp as someone who was born here and whose parents immigrated here for the American Dream.

They've done great. We lived in a rural area. It was possible because one of them came highly skilled and solicited to immigrate.

That being said I shudder when I hear "just move to rural blah blah blah". My life was horrible there. I was considered black, egytian, non-english speaking, to come from a family of savages or royalty or witchcraft depending on the speaker.

This whole "move to a rural place" really doesn't seem open to the non-white growing majority. Its certainly nothing like the Californian life I live now where I still cannot afford a home but can enjoy Mexican, Indian, Ethiopian, Korean, and american culture in a form of acceptance that was fully closed to me growing up.

Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by gurumeditations on Sunday April 17, 2022 @02:58PM (#31063273)
Same with gays especially, you have to live in a city or live in hiding in most places.
Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by pempem on Sunday April 17, 2022 @11:50PM (#31067198)
Fully agreed ^
Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by bigthymer on Sunday April 17, 2022 @07:16PM (#31065448)
Care to expound some more on the differences between living in rural places vs. the Californian life? I've spent most of my time in the suburbs of coastal cities.
Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by aerosmile on Sunday April 17, 2022 @02:04PM (#31062832)
The American Dream is not about getting more for less, as in "most luxury for the least amount of effort." It's about having a shot at owning a business without the financial backing of a rich family [0], which is more like "most luxury for an insane amount of effort."

[0] A lot of recent discussion centers on how many of the most successful US entrepreneurs come from privileged backgrounds, but you should not lose sight of the fact that literally every other country in the world will fare a lot worse in this regard. Many things are broken in the US, but no other place on Earth has lower barriers to starting your own LLC and hiring your first employee.

Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by diordiderot on Sunday April 17, 2022 @04:00PM (#31063900)
> literally every other country in the world will fare a lot worse in this regard

US is 27th place on economic mobility index soooo....

Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by pempem on Sunday April 17, 2022 @04:46PM (#31064337)
@Aerosmile I dont know that you need to look at Austria. You can just look at America over time. Mobility is getting harder and there's no real need to pretend it isn't
Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by hodgesrm on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:49AM (#31068619)
The US is not a capitalist paradise. We moved a software company from the UK to a US Delaware Corp 2 years ago and it was a major headache involving substantial legal fees, accounting, employee benefits, and taxes. Texas interestingly has been the hardest to deal with--probably our biggest single accounting expense due to what seems to be antiquated tax management on their end.

It was a lot easier doing business in the UK. We had relatively low accounting overhead, the laws were not hard to follow, and we didn't have to deal with having employees and customers sprinkled over a dozen state jurisdictions.

We're fortunate to work in a growing and lucrative market, but it's not all peaches and cream.

Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by aerosmile on Friday April 22, 2022 @01:39AM (#31118553)
You're confusing accounting expenses and the cost of running a business. Even personal taxes are a pain the US.

So, yes, doing your own corporate taxes in the US is likely not a good idea, especially if you hire people across several states. But the cost of an accountant is a minuscule cost compared to paying X% more across your entire payroll (not to mention other aspects).

Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by tcptomato on Monday April 18, 2022 @03:30AM (#31068266)
This is r/shitamericanssay material.
Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by thedailymail on Sunday April 17, 2022 @05:52PM (#31064826)
Completely anecdotal, but my maternal grandfather was a first-generation immigrant at the turn of the 20th century, speaking no English, no family, no job - the whole cliché. He did various jobs - fireman, train conductor, court stenographer - none of which would be particularly high-income or high-prestige today. But by the 1960s he had managed to raise 12 children with my grandmother, a stay-at-home mother, and to pay off both a 10-room home in the suburbs of NYC and an 80-acre vacation place in the Catskills.

The heroic labor of immigrants notwithstanding, I strongly doubt that would be possible for a fresh-off-the-boater today. I told my 20-something kids about it and they just laughed, like hearing about someone who stumbled across a pot of gold or a magic goose in a fairytale. I can't say I blame them.

Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by throwaway4aday on Sunday April 17, 2022 @02:29PM (#31063036)
That's a very different version of the American Dream than what I've always considered it to be. Even as portrayed in movies through rose tinted glasses it's always seemed to be the conjecture that even if you start with nothing, through a lot of hard work, thrift, frugality and determination you can work your way up through the ranks and eventually achieve a good living. They generally make a big deal out of the protagonist living a hard scrabble life while they're working towards their big break.

Seeing it as being guaranteed a home and family on an average workers pay is completely detached from that narrative.

Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by lazide on Sunday April 17, 2022 @02:57PM (#31063262)
Uh no. The American Dream has been about the ability to work hard to better oneself, and work UP TO that after education or doing something unique (like making their own business work and be profitable). Not that anyone could move here and just get it everything by doing the minimum.
Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by heavyset_go on Sunday April 17, 2022 @08:42PM (#31066048)
Here's what FDR said about the minimum wage law that was passed in 1933:

> It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.

> By business I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.

Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by lazide on Monday April 18, 2022 @01:06AM (#31067629)
Ah, the one that was declared unconstitutional?

And that had an inflation adjusted earning potential of $4.81/hr (approx, in 2021)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_Sta...

If you think working and living conditions are worse now than they were in 1933, I'd love some concrete examples.

I'm not saying things couldn't be better. I'm saying that most people talking about this seem to be completely devoid of context about life at all, and most proposed solutions just come across as strong arguments that they have no clue about the world at all, or why anything is the way it is.

Which is a solid vote in the column of 'changes proposed won't accomplish the stated goals, and will cause way more problems'. In my experience, anyway.

In my experience one of the biggest issues is that no one reports companies doing shitty things, and the labor orgs in the gov'ts get away with ignoring shitty things, because no one holds any politicians accountable on labor issues because most of the population is super complacent about everything.

Hell, Amazon and a number of other companies are super blatant about their ACTIVELY ILLEGAL ANTI-LABOR ORGANIZING, and not a peep seems to be coming from the appropriate labor departments.

And since everyone is super complacent (barely any protests even), then of course nobody cares. Because nobody is making them care.

If everyone really feels so badly about it, make it known by making them feel badly about it. Instead everyone seems to go back to candy crush after posting complaints online about how terrible things are.

Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by pempem on Sunday April 17, 2022 @04:48PM (#31064349)
What is the 'minimum' when every single corporation is working to de-skill jobs so that they can cut wages, limit onboarding etc.

We all work on or adjacent to embedded software for robots to replace people in these jobs so that they can go on to be 'free' to have a higher skill job doing....no one ever seems to know what. Except maintaining said robots.

Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by lazide on Sunday April 17, 2022 @05:04PM (#31064504)
It's literally always been that way. Every business tries to cut costs, or they become unprofitable. Every organization tries to mechanize/create repetitive process where they can to minimize the amount of skilled workers they need as part of it. Every organization tries to skrimp where it can.

I literally never worked for a company with an onboarding or training process until I got to a FAANG. At that point I had been in industry full time for ~ 13 years, and worked at everything from startups to established 200+ employee companies.

Everyone has been worried about 'automation' nuking the jobs since I was born, and outsourcing killing all industry too. First it was Japan that was going to own the world though. Then Outsourcing to India. Then China. And they had impacts. But somehow, everyone who is useful keeps working, and everyone actually seems better off. Hell, the 'maintain the robots as the only jobs left' was a 90's thing with worries about car manufacturing automation.

Back then, a lot of jobs were things like secretaries, gophers (task runners)/delivery workers, retail shopping workers, postal workers, etc. Now people use email and write their own documents, uber or ubereats what they want, have things shipped to their door. Quality of life is dramatically higher in every objective way I can see.

And if anything, there are waaaaay more jobs now, and people seem to be doing better everywhere. But they seem to hate everything and everyone way more, and FEEL poorer.

Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by masonic on Monday April 18, 2022 @03:20AM (#31068218)
Yet you don't see that "gopher" / shopping jobs are alive and well in the very service workers you use today (Uber/eats, "items shipped to your door", etc.)
Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by lazide on Monday April 18, 2022 @11:41PM (#31079569)
I think you’re making my point for me?
Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by pempem on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @03:57PM (#31088161)
I hear you on 'always' and say - while strenuously protesting that I am not a luddite - that many jobs required apprenticeship. Some in the US still do and in places like Japan its a requirement. In France you can still make a living as a butcher and if the Great Pottery Throwdown is to be believed you can be a successful scrub nurse or elder care manager in the UK and still own a home and have the wherewithal to be a fantastic potter, in a home pottery studio. (that last bit is tongue in cheek).

Capitalists gonna capitalist.

But they are limited to differing degrees due to policy. Our current state isn't inevitable.

Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by lazide on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @04:30PM (#31088623)
Statutorily for sure. Most don’t require apprenticeships as a part of the job/role fundamentally though. Electricians (classic apprenticeship setup there) for instance could be made through formal trade school + probationary period, and it would likely be even better than it is now. If it works, it works though.

Generally, It’s a means of locking in stasis in a particular field in general, or restricting competition to the ‘have’s’, just like the old Guild setup before that. Still very much a thing for MD’s in the US.

There is a reason why France in particular is notorious for not getting anything done.

German’s do it too of course, but in their own way which is focused more on results, so it tends to be less sclerotic and more productive.

It’s always a trade off - more protectionism, or more churn/chaos/competition. If they can provide good labor protections while maintaining economic growth enough to ‘lift the tide’ overall, hard to fault them. It’s easy to go so far that it strangles the economy and locks everyone into a pointlessly inefficient setup in favor of the protected classes though. (And they won’t necessarily be rich protected classes either).

Europe’s tide hasn’t been rising very rapidly for awhile, and many EU countries are clearly insolvent overall (Greece, Italy, etc), so we’ll see how long they can sustain it.

And housing wise - to be somewhat on topic - very unlikely those Nurses in the UK are doing so in London.

Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by mepiethree on Sunday April 17, 2022 @02:14PM (#31062911)
A home, yeah, not a home in downtown metros. My uncle is a teacher and owns two houses in rural Ohio with his wife, kid, and two dogs. Living the American dream.
Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by diordiderot on Sunday April 17, 2022 @04:01PM (#31063912)
How many hours did he work to buy the house. How many will a new teacher have to work.
Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by refurb on Sunday April 17, 2022 @09:28PM (#31066341)
Pretty much. Not realistic to assume someone comes to the US with nothing and then buy a home in say San Francisco.

The American Dream is typically "come to the US with nothing and build a comfortable life, no matter who you are". I still think that's possible. Guaranteed? Of course not.

Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by nradov on Sunday April 17, 2022 @09:51PM (#31066459)
A high percentage of homes in San Francisco are literally owned by first-generation immigrants. You can obviously see this just walking around and talking to people.
Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by iamdbtoo on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:12PM (#31111365)
Why not downtown metros? Would you prefer to have a poorer group of people who can't live near where they work?
Re:What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? by spacemanmatt on Sunday April 17, 2022 @04:05PM (#31063941)
I don't know when that idea got started, but it seems like my grandparents' generation (The Greatest Generation) enjoyed the greatest benefits of it, then my parents' generation benefited but also inherited their parents' wealth. As a GenX person, I watched my cohort struggle well more than their boomer parents' cohort.

The American dream was effectively denied to my generation and it's only gotten worse for subsequent generations.