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Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by seanw444 on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:00AM (#30956834)
Sounds pretty based to me. Leave voting alone. Write your vote on paper, bring it in yourself. Sure there's room for improvement in the process, but sprinkling networked computers in to solve every problem is the wrong approach.
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by yohannparis on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:26AM (#30957186)
Just to be accurate, we do not write anything, you gather an envelope and take 12 pieces of paper (one for each candidate), then in the booth, you fill the envelope with your chosen candidate.

There is a bin to dispose of the other papers, or dispose of them elsewhere for complete anonymous. Most people just take the one they want, or the few they are still undecided before getting in the booth.

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by pmontra on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:48AM (#30957573)
This system doesn't feel good especially because they are allowed to "just take the one they want". It feels like an easy system to game with the goal to make sure that people vote what they are told to vote. Maybe nobody even thinks about doing such things in France, lucky you.

This has reminded me what happened on the other side of the Alps in the elections of 1929. People received two envelopes. One with the national flag on the inside and a white one. They left inside the booth the one they didn't like and gave the other one back to the scrutineers. The outside was almost the same but the color inside was visible from the outside [1] Guess the result. Hint: almost 99% to 1%.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Italian_general_election

[2] https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elezioni_politiche_in_Italia_d... for more details and pictures of the cards inside out.

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by seszett on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:55AM (#30957725)
> This system doesn't feel good especially because they are allowed to "just take the one they want".

You actually have the obligation to take at least two of them. I'm not sure how strongly this is enforced, but most people take a few of them.

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by Thervicarl on Friday April 08, 2022 @11:07AM (#30958012)
I have an old memory of my grandmother being scolded because she only wanted to take the paper of the guy she wanted to vote for. And the assessors at my local voting place usually complain when people pick only one paper and want to bypass the voting booth (but it is not like they will come to blows over this).
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by pmontra on Saturday April 09, 2022 @10:45AM (#30968468)
Is it difficult or utterly impossible to fold the other card and put in a pocket and show it to somebody else outside the polling station?

That would open hacks like "pick my card and my worst opponent one, vote for me and show me my opponent card. And pray that I get at least as many votes as the cards of my opponent that people bring to me."

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by baud147258 on Friday April 08, 2022 @11:16AM (#30958192)
in addition to the papers you can pick in the polling station, in the week before the election, French people should receive the papers for all available candidates, so you don't even have to take a paper at the same time as the envelop (or take a few papers and then use one from your pocket).
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by Ekaros on Friday April 08, 2022 @12:36PM (#30959299)
Hmm what if you are monitored, given a paper and then checked that you don't have any extra on body? Seems like entirely possible via violence or blackmail to gain some votes...
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by athenot on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:31AM (#30957280)
Usually a voting official standing nearby will ask that you pick from at least 2-3 piles.
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by seanw444 on Friday April 08, 2022 @04:06PM (#30961893)
I guess I worded that poorly. I don't mean you whip out some printer paper, write the names of the people you're voting for, and hand it in. Here in the States, you have a list of bubbles to fill in, and an "other" option. I assume that's how it is in most places. I was just making a distinction between "filling in the bubble on paper" and using a computer.
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by simiones on Monday April 11, 2022 @07:35AM (#30987295)
> Here in the States, you have a list of bubbles to fill in, and an "other" option. I assume that's how it is in most places.

I think a major difference is that in most places in Europe at least there is no "Other" option - the list of candidates is fixed by some legal date before the election. Doing anything other than choosing one of the official candidates simply means that your vote is invalid. Invalid votes are all counted together, not matter what made them invalid (a torn paper is counted the same as a paper where you wrote Mickey Mouse or spilled coffee on it); with the possible exception of blank votes, which are sometimes counted separately as "protest votes" (though I don't believe they have any legal significance, at best they may carry symbolic significance).

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by guerby on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:59AM (#30957819)
Also you receive by snail mail the voting paper piece for each candidate (and 1 page document each on their program) before the election takes place.
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by kingcharles on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:08AM (#30956932)
Off-topic, but do you mean "biased" when you say "based"? I feel like I'm in some parallel universe because I swear for the last 6 months I've not seen a single person spell biased right.

Was there a meeting where everyone agreed to make a confusing change to the spelling and no-one told me about it?

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by eti on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:15AM (#30957008)
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by maxerickson on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:56AM (#30957748)
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by simiones on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:28AM (#30957212)
"Based" is similar to some uses of "cool" - it's a kind of generic positive adjective. You can read it as "sounds pretty good to me" / "sounds pretty cool to me".

It has nothing at all to do with "biased".

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by Markoff on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:42AM (#30957475)
I've never seen it used as "cool", it's much more commonly used as synonym for "conservative" or "unique going own way despite popular opinion".

EDIT: Other poster explained it maybe better as "being yourself and not caring what others think of you".

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by simiones on Friday April 08, 2022 @12:50PM (#30959512)
> "unique going own way despite popular opinion"

Well, that's at least one aspect of "being cool", so I still feel they are at least vaguely related.

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by jpadkins on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:59AM (#30957827)
more specific than just cool, it sometimes means the opposite of debased (: to lower in status, esteem, quality, or character. : to reduce the intrinsic value of (a coin) by increasing the base-metal content )

I've read it as high quality, high character, or high value depending on the subject.

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by slackfan on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:10AM (#30956959)
No, based =/= biased.
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by smnrchrds on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:35AM (#30957350)
> Based is a slang term that originally meant to be addicted to crack cocaine (or acting like you were), but was reclaimed by rapper Lil B for being yourself and not caring what others think of you—to carry yourself with swagger.

> Based has been appropriated by the alt-right online as a general term of praise, as if “un-woke.”

https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/based/

Well, TIL.

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by tenebrisalietum on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:45AM (#30957533)
Based is the opposite of cringe, the usage started with 4chan and continues on /pol/ to this day.
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by CryptoBanker on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:22AM (#30957127)
It’s a young persons word…
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by kingcharles on Friday April 08, 2022 @11:50AM (#30958735)
OK, cool. So it's like how everyone tried to make "on fleek" a thing a little while back?
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by exfascist on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:29AM (#30957241)
I'm still not convinced it isn't partially related to the word "base" as in "bad" or "cool" which has been used for a pretty long time.
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by fullshark on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:43AM (#30957494)
I think its origin is being high on crack cocaine (freebase) and feeling good as a result
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by newbamboo on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:50AM (#30957615)
From “All your base are belong to us.” Not a new term. It’s a gamer thing.
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by jasonlaramburu on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:47AM (#30957556)
How is dropping an envelope in a box more secure? It would seem trivial for an attacker to create one or more fake ballots and slip them in the box along with their real ballot.
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by guerby on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:57AM (#30957782)
One enveloppe is given to you on the polling station when you show your id and it is checked against the voter list.

You have then to go to a place where you are hidden when you put your ballot inside the enveloppe

Once the election is over, when counting if one enveloppe has more than one ballot it is counted as "nul" (void ballot). Enveloppe number is checked against the number of voting people who showed up.

Regular citizen volunteers are doing the opening and counting. Candidates can designate people of their choice to monitor each counting table. Everyone can write a remark on things not done to rules in an official document.

The "Conseil Constitutionnel" will rule on the voting process and issue a detailed report.

https://www.conseil-constitutionnel.fr/les-decisions/type/PD...

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by Thervicarl on Friday April 08, 2022 @11:03AM (#30957908)
French ballot boxes are transparent. And you can only insert your envelope when the person in charge presses a lever to open the entry slot. Even for a magician / trickster it would be hard to attack.

But the important thing is that anybody with two eyes (or at least one) and some basic cognitive abilities can understand what is going on and make sure that there is nothing shady going on.

Basically any citizen can take a sandwich, a bottle of water and spend the day in his local voting place from beginning to end and have a reasonable certainty that the voting process was fair.

I think this is very important for democracy. It does not solve other problems (fair access to media...) but at least the voting part is reliable.

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by seszett on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:52AM (#30957657)
The envelope is dropped under close scrutiny by officials in a standard box with a thin slit, it is unlikely that one would be able to insert fake ballots there.

Even if that was possible, after the vote closes the ballots are counted and the amount must match the number of people who voted, so the result would be invalidated.

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by jasonlaramburu on Friday April 08, 2022 @12:45PM (#30959424)
>Even if that was possible, after the vote closes the ballots are counted and the amount must match the number of people who voted, so the result would be invalidated.

So an attacker could potentially invalidate hundreds (or thousands) of votes by stuffing a single fake ballot into the box? This seems like the illusion of security.

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by seszett on Thursday April 14, 2022 @06:52AM (#31025209)
To follow up on this now that the election has been done, here are the results and the detail of invalidated votes: https://www.conseil-constitutionnel.fr/decision/2022/2022195...

About 10 000 votes have been invalidated in total, which is an order of magnitude less than the smallest difference between two candidates, and 40 times less than the amount of votes which decided which candidates are going to be present for the 2nd turn.

Only one voting office reported a significant discrepancy between the amount of ballots and the amount of voters, resulting in 475 invalidated votes.

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by throw0101a on Friday April 08, 2022 @05:34PM (#30962781)
> So an attacker could potentially invalidate hundreds (or thousands) of votes by stuffing a single fake ballot into the box? This seems like the illusion of security.

In Canada poll workers initial the ballots, and the ballots have serials numbers on them and a stub (which also has the S/N) that is torn off by poll worker:

> The election worker checks their initials and the assigned polling station number on the back of the ballot; compares the counterfoil number against the stub number in the booklet and makes sure they are the same; takes off the counterfoil and tears it up; and gives the ballot back to you to put in the ballot box. You slide your ballot into the ballot box where it is mixed in with other ballots. No one will know how you voted.

* https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=int/sa...

So there's a record of which ballots were put in via proper workflow.

If there's a discrepancy the non-proper ballots can be identified and removed.

From Elections Canada:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqu8ONkWQBE

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbc_n8Ys_CA

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by seszett on Friday April 08, 2022 @01:20PM (#30959907)
I'm not sure exactly what happens, it's never happened when I was counting ballots.

Invalidating a box could result in up to a thousand votes being discarded indeed, which is quite small though for a national election.

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by jasonlaramburu on Friday April 08, 2022 @01:30PM (#30960066)
>Invalidating a box could result in up to a thousand votes being discarded indeed, which is quite small though for a national election.

I don't know what are the typical margins of victory for French Elections. In the 2000 US Presidential Election, George W. Bush won the Presidency by a margin of 537 votes in Florida. If the US had implemented French style balloting, a single attack of this kind in a heavily Republican district of Florida could have easily swayed the election to Gore.

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by seszett on Friday April 08, 2022 @01:52PM (#30960324)
French elections are decided on ~40 million total votes. Margins are much larger than a thousand votes.
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by malka on Friday April 08, 2022 @01:21PM (#30959927)
the box is invalidated. If enough boxes are unvalidated, the ballot is probably cancelled, and rescheduled.
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by malka on Friday April 08, 2022 @01:20PM (#30959917)
It would require a lot of effort to do this at scale, and it could not go unnoticed. Probably not perfect, but I dont see a better system.
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by simiones on Friday April 08, 2022 @11:04AM (#30957942)
Election supervisors look for this. Also, the ballots themselves are not "write your vote on paper", they are specifically printed and available at the polling station.

The way the vote works is:

1. Come in at the polling station you are alloted to, based on your address.

2. Show your ID, and have them verify you are indeed on the electoral lists for this polling station.

3. Receive the ballot papers. These are stamped by the election official before they are given to you. You receive one ballot paper for each election currently organized (e.g. one paper for choosing your mayor, one paper for choosing your president etc). You also receive an official stamp. You are responsible for checking that the ballot you received is valid (stamped in exactly one place by the election official, not torn or scuffed etc). You can ask any election official for help if you suspect something is wrong.

4. Go into a polling booth, and put the stamp on the box for the candidate you want. Fold the ballot so your choice is not immediately visible (producing evidence of who you voted for, such as taking a picture or showing your ballot to someone else is a crime, punishable with a fine or jail time).

5. Put the ballot in the ballot box. There may be a single ballot box for all ballots, or one ballot box per election.

That's it - normally takes ~5 minutes, unless there are lines, which can happen at certain hours in certain busy places. Still, the size of polling stations is set by law to be big enough for the electoral lists of the area they are close to.

Counting is then simple:

1. Once the election day is officially closed, the ballot boxes are opened. Officials from each participating party are present in each polling station, and they perform the following operations together.

2. All ballots are validated and sorted. Any ballot which is not valid (e.g. not the right paper, not stamped by the election official, stamped in multiple places by the voter, stamped outside the vote area, paper is torn etc) is discarded. The discarded ballots are still numbered and stored, in case of disputes.

3. All ballots are opened and counted. Results are tabulated, and signed by all election officials in the polling station. The counted and sorted ballots are stored in secured bags. Results are communicated electronically to regional and then national election commissions.

3.5 Ballot counts must exactly match voter counts for this station. If they don't, police are called and videos are reviewed to identify the cause. Stolen or stuffed ballots are crimes and carry heavy fines or prison.

4. Election officials start collecting the bags from each polling station and storing them with each regional election commission office. The polling station attendants are responsible for ensuring the ballots arrive safely at the destination regional election office.

5. The process repeats until everything is centralized at the national electoral comission.

Preliminary results are typically announced starting ~1 h after the polls close.

Final results are typically announced the day after, usually by the night time.

Disputes at any level are arbitrated by the electoral commissions, and can be raised all the way up to the courts.

Any citizen can register beforehand and volunteer to work as an electoral official in any polling place, and personally monitor the process. Journalists and NGOs regularly do this.

Each political party keeps a separate, unofficial running count of the results.

The whole things scales beautifully, and is very hard if not impossible to systematically defraud (unless political parties systematically collude against their own candidates, but if they are willing to do that, the results don't really matter anymore anyway).

Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by isbvhodnvemrwvn on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:49AM (#30957598)
How do you scale it to thousands of ballot boxes across the entire country? One line of code is all it takes for the voting machines.
Re:Voting in France: Paper ballots, cast in person; no machines by pif on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:51AM (#30957631)
It is more secure because you validate the envelope: more than one ballot implies the envelope is discarded.