News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by GordonS on Monday March 28, 2022 @01:52PM (#30833400)
I'm aware that the USA has shockingly, appallingly low animal welfare standards, especially for a developed country - but chickens don't have to be farmed like that.

I haven't bought a non-free range egg in at least a decade, and I make sure any poultry I buy has been reared with good welfare.

Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by pmoriarty on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:01PM (#30833527)
A couple of things about "free-range" chickens:

1 - They might not actually be free-range after all. I've seen multiple exposes where the chickens advertised as "free-range" actually weren't, or they were allowed out of their cages for an hour a day and they called that "free-range".

2 - Even if they're are free-range, their conditions could still be appalling. Overcrowding and debeaking are common.

Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by GordonS on Monday March 28, 2022 @04:36PM (#30835249)
I presume you are talking with regards to the US?

I'm in the UK, and we have proper regulation that sets out what "free range" is - it is not whatever ludicrously tenuous definition the US has dreamt up.

I live in rural Scotland, and can see free range chickens for myself - they seem to be living a good life.

Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by Aromasin on Monday March 28, 2022 @06:07PM (#30836226)
Say what you will about how they spend their best years, but they still come from hatcheries where 50% of the population upon hatching are gassed or dropped live off the end of a conveyor belt into a macerator. Equally, they end their life more often than not in a slaughterhouse where the conditions are abysmal to say the least.

The UK has some of the strictest animal welfare in the world, but they are still continuously broken by most farms across the country it seems. One example of many would be the private investigation into the suppliers for M&S's free range organic eggs in 2016. One of the most well reputed retailers in the country, yet they found barns full of ill chickens unable to walk, rotten corpses littering the place, and overcrowding throughout: https://investigations.peta.org/marks-spencer-cruelty-chicke...

All throughout my teens I worked on cattle and poultry farms across the South of England and to be frank, I saw disturbing scenes at every single one of them. Even though I've somewhat reconciled with eating animal products morally in recent years, I've lost any and all trust in the food production system to do it ethically, despite appearances on the surface.

If rigorous legislation doesn't stop farmers from abusing their livestock, then the only option left it seems is a return to self-reliant homesteading where you know exactly where the food comes from, or the production of synthetic alternatives as discussed in OP's article. Personally, as much as I enjoy the eggs from my rescue hens, I hope for the latter.

Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by gondo on Monday March 28, 2022 @05:47PM (#30836030)
For now. After Brexit, UK will most likely adapt more US standards to allow more US imports to offset the lack of trade with EU.
Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by 0des on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:24PM (#30833792)
In my locality, free range means your friend has chickens, you pet them during barbecues and feed them boudain balls to encourage bigger eggs. Not often in life are the best things also free or cheaper than the store bought alternative
Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by dewey on Monday March 28, 2022 @01:58PM (#30833480)
> but chickens don't have to be farmed like that

They probably have to if you want to keep the same, low and subsided price that people, who don't want or can pay more, got used to.

Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by slap_shot on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:18PM (#30833716)
I think I pay $8 a dozen for Vital Farms eggs. My assumption is that a lot of that price is for whatever overhead is required to run things a bit more humanely than the average.
Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by squeaky-clean on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:48PM (#30834079)
I also pay more for pasture raised chicken eggs as well, but the regular eggs by me are almost always on sale for $1.50 for dozen if you're willing to jump between a few brands. That's a pretty massive difference, especially for someone with a family who probably goes through a couple dozen eggs per week.

I'm aware that making a software-engineer salary I can easily afford more humanely raised eggs, but I'd never judge my friends who are, say, schoolteachers, for not being able to justify eggs that are 6x more expensive.

inb4 the inevitable comment of "pasture raised doesn't mean anything, the chickens can still...." Yes I researched the specific farm my eggs come from to make sure it's humane.

Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by oezi on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:24PM (#30833796)
Unfortunately in the case of animal wellfare or Bio as the call it in Europe your extra money mostly goes to supermarkets as profit, to the low volume producers and less than 5% actually go towards a better product or animal wellfare. For things like eggs I would be very surprised if more than 1 cent extra per egg is actually spend towards improving the conditions of chickens.
Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by brimble on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:49PM (#30834091)
This seems to undercut the "doing it ethically would significantly increase prices" argument for why it doesn't happen. Does this mean we could legislate the worst kinds of egg production out of existence and, once things settled down, only pay single-digit-percentages more for a dozen eggs, because most of the difference now is just middlemen gouging price-insensitive buyers? $5 more per dozen is a shock and would have people up in arms (probably literally), $0.20 more per dozen seems... not so bad.
Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by slap_shot on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:52PM (#30834127)
The argument is that keeping the price low requires inhumane practices, but providing human practices doesn't command a price that would offset the overhead of being more human? That doesn't make sense.
Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by sweetheart on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:18PM (#30833720)
Free range means nothing. This is humane washing, and is incredibly misleading. Here’s a good rule of thumb: any animal product you use, outside of veeery rare cases like backyard eggs, you _know_ it is the result of needless suffering. Even things like backyard eggs can easily be rife with issues, however.

https://www.surgeactivism.org/humanewashing

Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by kkfx on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:27PM (#30833830)
Did you know how in free, natural nature animals eat? grass is literally eaten alive, animals are normally torn apart by other animal teeth. What you propose? Change nature to be a false/artificial paradise?

Humans are omnivores, we need to eat meat and animal proteins to live well, that's is, we can and we should treats animals we eat differently but that's not just a mere business issue, it's also a dimensional issue: we are many, too many. I doubt we can live without certain practice.

I do not say, of course, that TINA, we are in the sole possible world etc, just saying that going from an extreme to another is a good way to makes disasters.

Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by brimble on Monday March 28, 2022 @03:01PM (#30834241)
Nature: living every day like you're in a slasher horror movie. Really, really bad. It only seems fun and wholesome to us because we're on top and almost none of us spend much time genuinely engaging with nature in even the way that an apex predator has to, let alone prey animals. And jeez, why would we? It's terrible.

Factory farm: living every day (and probably not very many of them) like you're in Saw or Cube or something. Far worse than even the pretty bad situation that is life in nature. Like, a lot worse. And that was already pretty bad.

Ethical farms, keeping backyard chickens, et c: Like living in a relatively good dystopia. Brave New World, maybe, in the best case. Logan's Run, in the worst.

Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by kkfx on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @06:32AM (#30840851)
Are we different then all other animals in natural terms? We need to eat like any other living being, we need to eat well, to reproduce to keep our species alive, we need to rest, ... whats the difference?

It's because living in an network of intensive farms, named cities, detached from our natural environment, seeing the foods popping up regularly in certain place, already prepared, no need to hunt/source it, we thing that food arrive here by nature, that our intensive farm is actually nature?

Is that really different? Oh, yes we are not slaughtered at a certain point of our life, except in case of wars etc, but we are equally "used" for doing various jobs by some of us who think they are puppet-masters and we are the puppets (cfr. famous JP Morgan leaked phrase, various neoliberal books etc). Oh, yes, in our case the shepherd is not from another species (witch made things even worse), but we equally born in such intensive farms not free in nature.

It's just a matter about how much bad farming is bad, how much ethical farming is ethical.

Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by AnonC on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:50PM (#30834097)
> Change nature to be a false/artificial paradise?

Who’s asking to change other animals? It’s about humans changing their behavior. In nature, forced sex is very common among many animals. But in human societies we have deemed it a criminal activity. That’s just one example to show that humans, especially in our times, have improved ethics and the agency to commit to better ethics compared to our ancestors in the distant past.

Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by kkfx on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @06:33AM (#30840858)
Oh we made criminal many things, just look around in the world how common they are... Just look how ethical are our most well known citizens from governments to big enterprises...
Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by sweetheart on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:34PM (#30833917)
Every major nutrition and dietetics association agrees unanimously that a vegan diet is healthy for all stages of life including pregnancy.

https://youaretheirvoice.com/pages/the-clear-consensus

So you’re simply not correct that we need animals to thrive.

Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by kkfx on Monday March 28, 2022 @03:00PM (#30834229)
Every scientific associations in the recent past have said that sardines, blue fish are the proteins of the sea, we need to eat them, few years later the same say that are full of poisons. Few years earlier eggs are the best nutrient we have, few years after eggs are hard to digest, full of "cholesterol" [1]. Long story short "dietetics association" means mostly lobbyist associations on sale to the best offer.

Oh, BTW just a bit more time ago most MDs agreed that radioactivity is good for health and they try to determine the best dosage of radium to be put on skin and eat for various purposes like fight baldness or fortifying the fetus in pregnant women. Years later most MDs agree that smoking tobacco is very good for many things, especially useful to fight flu and cold. Few years later we discover that that's was an Eduard Bernays advertising campaign: he created a medical journal that start publishing real studies and he distribute it between medical offices and universities, then he start injecting few false but false but credible studies that praised tobacco smoke. In little time many real researchers have follow claiming other discovering.

I can't really know for sure why there is a push against meat, what I know for sure is that's not a matter of fighting climate change, nor adapting to it. Another thing I know for sure is that ultra-processed foods, like foods based on insects and grains, cost very little for their producers on scale, and can be sold with a very big margin and are complex enough to make them taste good that no small player can compete. Meanwhile I know how sales of statins climbs in the recent years and who profit for them.

[1] witch is a common world and a completely true and false statement since LDL is digested thanks to all animal proteins and pushed up by starchy foods.

Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by sweetheart on Monday March 28, 2022 @03:13PM (#30834382)
If credible sources from experts don’t matter to you, then I don’t think there is any way you’ll be convicted of anything. Doesn’t sound like you’re actually open to discussion.
Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by kkfx on Monday March 28, 2022 @05:49PM (#30836051)
I simply call "credible sources from experts" other things. In the recent past we read that blue fish are "the protein of the sea, eat much" then "blue fish collect all sort of pollutants, avoid it". We see "eggs are a godsend for health, eat them at minimum one per day" and then again "eggs are 'cholesterol' avoid them, limiting them as possible" etc.

In an a bit far past (not that far) doctors recommend smoking as a cure-all for common winter disease, "it kills all the germs of the season", years after we discover that was just the result of an Eduard Bernays campaign for the American Tobacco Company: he create a new scientific journal, collecting real studies and sending it for free "to advertise the new journal", it became popular thanks to easy access and low entry barrier for publishing, then he inject some credible studies that prize smoking. MANY OTHERS researchers have followed them, taking them as true, and amplifying the echo.

Long story short, I have enough basic scientific knowledge to discern and to remember that Science is not based on blind trusting some "expert" but always demand why. Take meat for instance, common voices, dressed as scientific truth say that's bad for climate change because demand much water and produce much methane. Now try to see how much methane we estimate released into the atmosphere due to arctic heating and how much CO₂ is annually release by world fires. Clearly methane from cows does not change the climate. Now water: yes, livestock drink, clean water, and release urine, witch is not clean water. BUT it's still water. If treated to produce natural (ammonia-based) fertilizers we desperately need, the outcome is clean water, because we do not "consume" it, it's just a cycle. So again that statement is true if we just see a small part of the picture, false otherwise.

That's is, I have collect many examples of false beliefs considered established Science that aren't science at all. Of course I do know the ancient pro-smoking campaign was an advertisement campaign because that's history, we have documents, what's up today is "present" documents are not public, at least not much and not yet, but while we can't know "the real truth" we can still try to discern what's probably true from what's probably false, choosing not to trust any guru or formal association, privately founded just to note, but using actual Scientific method, demanding evidence, elaborating it.

Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by oneoff786 on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:54PM (#30834154)
In the US a free range chicken gets a couple square feet of space to move around it.

If you want a chicken that can actually walk around and go outside you want a pasture raised egg.

Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by GordonS on Monday March 28, 2022 @04:35PM (#30835242)
I'm in the UK, and we have proper regulation that sets out what "free range" is - it is not whatever ludicrously tenuous definition the US has dreamt up.

I live in rural Scotland, and can see free range chickens for myself - they seem to be living a good life.

Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by oneoff786 on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:06PM (#30837927)
I mean that’s great. We have rural chickens too. It’s not that hard to find. The supermarkets here (Massachusetts) have pretty clear labels on what all the chicken raising options mean.
Re:First chicken-free egg white product reaches US markets by bjoli on Monday March 28, 2022 @04:39PM (#30835277)
I live in Sweden. We have OK-ish animal welfare laws. Even here free-range means very very little.

I use to think of it in numbers of a4 sheets of paper per hen. In a battery cage they have almost one. In fee range systems they have almost 3.

Not nearly enough for them to avoid stress behaviour and them killing eachother.