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Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by exabrial on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:58AM (#30831148)
Incredibly stupid. And the problem is if you oppose it, you're labeled a sympathizer.

There's a valid third option: recognize that freedom of speech is an essential human right. Some may choose to abuse it, but history has a way of sorting those things out.

Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by scrollaway on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:04AM (#30831210)
If you oppose it, I can certainly and very safely label you as somebody who doesn't know anything about Germany and its current laws, including the display of the swastika symbol and other nazi-related hate symbols and propaganda.

Europe is not the US, which I'm guessing you're from. We have a different culture around free speech, here. And tell you what, it's actually worked out really nicely for us, and most of Europe as a whole is higher than the USA on a variety of freedom indices.

We're not perfect, but the absolute free speech stuff you folks have over there is only good on paper. In practice, it's not absolute, and it has led to more issues there than here.

Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by lawl on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:23AM (#30831462)
Hello, I oppose it. I live right next to germany, i know quite a bit about it. The 'Z' is not banned here. Neither is russian media. Unlike in germany where RT is DNS censored now.

And I think the US free speech model is vastly superior.

Your opinion is not universally held by europeans, i just wanted to make that clear.

And no I don't support the war, nor do I like putin in the slightest, just to make that also clear.

Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by scrollaway on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:25AM (#30831504)
Never said it was universally held. Nothing is. I know european flat earthers, even. But do you disagree that it's by far the majority opinion and trend here?

BTW. If RT weren't DNS censored, all you would get is a 403. RT is now excluding most countries all on its own.

Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by lawl on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:35AM (#30831617)
> But do you disagree that it's by far the majority opinion and trend here?

I can't speak for all of europe. I do get these vibes from germany.

I switzerland I feel like most are somewhere between the US and germany, where they'd agree with a nazi flag ban but not an RT ban.

So no, it depends on the definition of "here".

Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by scrollaway on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:39AM (#30831660)
You were the one that brought up the RT ban. I was talking about symbolism displays.
Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by lawl on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:43AM (#30831706)
Z isn't banned here and I don't see any big calls to do so. Answer remains the same. Discussion was about freedom of speech and thus the RT ban is also relevant.
Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by Symbiote on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:39AM (#30831662)
For what it's worth, in Denmark www.rt.com resolves to 91.215.41.10 and seems to work correctly.
Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by PaulHoule on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:08AM (#30831260)
Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by belorn on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:28AM (#30831541)
Looking at the page I can easily identify political opinion of the authors and detect view points of who should be given freedom of speech and who shouldn't. Thankfully they do link in small print to the methodology, which explain that the views are that of the Freedom House staff. They do consult others which is a major plus, but in the end its the staff that make a decision about what freedom is, who should get it, and who shouldn't. The biggest criticism I would give the site is the lack of any critical assessment of contested topics where different social scientists has different conclusions.

I give the site a score of 7/10.

Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by foepys on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:20AM (#30831424)
This site is unreadable on mobile. Everything in the table has a huge font.

Reporters without Borders ranks the US behind quite a lot of European countries: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangliste_der_Pressefreiheit (German Wikipedia because the English article ironically doesn't include data)

Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by KIFulgore on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:21AM (#30831443)
"Freedom of Expression and Belief": US, 3/4. Germany, 4/4. Report invalidated.
Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by bmn__ on Monday March 28, 2022 @01:05PM (#30832755)
You have misread the report. In actuality the results are 14 out 16 points for both .us and .de in that category.
Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by exabrial on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:24PM (#30833794)
Unfortunately, you have a regime of approved speech under duress. A "culture of free speech" is far different, mainly, participation is voluntary without your person threatened under arrest from a government, but still using said human right in an acceptable manner to advance mankind.

And again, I dislike having to define these things; eventually someone will ad-hominum me saying I support a cause I clearly do not.

Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by yladiz on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:04AM (#30831209)
Freedom of speech is an essential but not absolute right. There are reasons to restrict freedom of speech in the name of greater good of the society that is enforcing that freedom and so the question is not whether restriction is just, but whether this particular restriction is.
Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by KptMarchewa on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:08AM (#30831264)
War limits free speech, and every nation recognizes it as such.

For example, US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Censorship

Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by jwond on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:31AM (#30831581)
Germany is not at war.
Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by KptMarchewa on Monday March 28, 2022 @01:09PM (#30832825)
In the name only. Russia is a hostile nation and there is great effort to do the most economical damage to it.
Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by randomdata on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:18AM (#30831393)
Perhaps the speech is free, but instead you're being prosecuted for being seen as a member of the enemy? If you displayed a "Z" in Ukraine right now, best of luck to you, even if it is only because you really like the letter "Z".
Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by exabrial on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:28PM (#30833851)
This is correct. You -should be- certainly free to express a "Z". I'm not saying you should be free from the consequences.
Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by manuelabeledo on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:03AM (#30831202)
> Some may choose to abuse it, but history has a way of sorting those things out.

History sorted these things, alright, but outcomes weren't as harmless as some people tend to believe.

In other words, how much value do you put in freedom of speech when human lives are in the line? E.g. shouldn't facebook have done something about the Rohingya genocide?

Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by exabrial on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:39PM (#30833975)
Facebook is a private platform.
Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by manuelabeledo on Monday March 28, 2022 @05:05PM (#30835561)
My point here is that history actually taught us that freedoms come with attachments.

I mentioned Facebook because it enabled the government of Myanmar during the persecution and genocide of the Rohingya people. They could have done something, but chose to ignore it and do nothing. This is not a unique occurrence either.

Freedom of speech without observing any moral or ethical consequences doesn't make you free, it makes you a libertine, and those who choose to enable these behaviours aren't innocent either.

On top of it, in this scenario, Russia is waging an information war against the West, so why should we grant them the freedom to do so?

Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by jleyank on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:06AM (#30831234)
As everybody never tires of pointing out, freedom of speech isn't unlimited nor does it apply to non-governmental actions. Can't get your jollies off yelling "Fire!" in a theatre. There's judicially accepted hate speech definitions. Also, what one says has consequences.
Re:Using the “Z” symbol could lead to prosecution in two Ger... by drewcoo on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:19AM (#30831407)