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Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by jacquesm on Friday March 25, 2022 @09:19AM (#30801793)
I think paper invoices should continue to be the way that this is handled unless otherwise requested, if only because you are - where I live - supposed to be able to prove this sort of thing for many years to the tax man. All these electronic records can disappear into thin air without you even realizing it has happened and good luck on your tax audit 7 years into the future.
Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by reaperducer on Friday March 25, 2022 @11:20AM (#30803221)
All these electronic records can disappear into thin air without you even realizing it has happened and good luck on your tax audit 7 years into the future.

I've never understood the value of "paperless" to the consumer. The benefit to the company is the savings of 3½¢ of postage and mailing expenses. But to the consumer...?

I pay my bills online, but I make sure I still get my statements by mail. I also balance my accounts from those statements each month, and every year I catch one or two errors, and they're almost always in favor of the banks.

Logically, I should be able to do the same thing by looking at my accounts online. But paper statements present the information in a different way than online, often to comply with laws about clear billing and communication. What's on paper sometimes very different from what's on the screen.

Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by Double_a_92 on Friday March 25, 2022 @12:05PM (#30803846)
Yeah the paperless system is horrible unless you are a person that strictly organizes things. There are so many different places where you have to go to collect your digital bills, and sometimes you just end up forgetting.

In Switzerland we luckily have a system where companies can send their bills directly into your eBanking system so they are all collected there. But if a company doesn't support that, it's much easier to keep the paper bill.

Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by rosndo on Friday March 25, 2022 @09:45AM (#30802087)
Why would you ever need to prove this kind of transactions to the tax man as an individual?

As a business it’s your duty to take care of your recordkeeping, print out the invoices if you so prefer.

Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by kube-system on Friday March 25, 2022 @09:58AM (#30802235)
The first mortgage bill of the year typically includes tax statements for the prior year. Etc.
Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by rosndo on Friday March 25, 2022 @10:07AM (#30802331)
I thought this thread was about utility bills, but okay, I’ll play along with your incredibly specific example.

Is this a weird american thing? At least here in the UK mortgage interest deductions are only applicable to businesses.

Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by formerkrogeremp on Friday March 25, 2022 @10:26AM (#30802555)
You can deduct home mortgage interest [1]. Another way in which homeownership and to an extent NIMBYism is subsidized in the tax code and by government policies.

[1] https://www.irs.gov/publications/p936#:~:text=You%20can%20de....

Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by justin66 on Friday March 25, 2022 @10:19AM (#30802468)
> I thought this thread was about utility bills

It was, which is why your comment starting with "As a business" was so bizarrely off-topic.

> Is this a weird american thing? At least here in the UK mortgage interest deductions are only applicable to businesses.

Yes. American homeowners can under most circumstances treat their mortage interest payments as tax deductable.

Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by rosndo on Friday March 25, 2022 @10:55AM (#30802928)
> It was, which is why your comment starting with "As a business" was so bizarrely off-topic.

What do you mean by off-topic? Businesses receive utility bills too, and might genuinely be required to keep records of those.

As far as I can tell, barring some very special circumstances, individuals never need to keep such records.

Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by justin66 on Friday March 25, 2022 @11:05AM (#30803033)
> As far as I can tell, barring some very special circumstances, individuals never need to keep such records.

This is blatantly false. Unless paying taxes is a "very special circumstance."

People don't want these records at hand purely for their own amusement, which seems to be the assumption you're operating under here.

Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by locooon on Friday March 25, 2022 @11:42AM (#30803499)
In what situation will an individual need to supply their utility bills to the taxman during an audit?

> This is blatantly false. Unless paying taxes is a "very special circumstance."

I’ve certainly never needed to pull up my utility bills while paying taxes as a private person.

It really feels like you’re just coming up with stuff, utility bills aren’t normally tax deductible (unless you are a business). There’s no reason you’d ever need them for the taxman any more than your grocery story receipts.

Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by justin66 on Friday March 25, 2022 @12:48PM (#30804412)
Wow, you really created an account to make that comment?

> In what situation will an individual need to supply their utility bills to the taxman during an audit?

The bills would be useful if they expensed some of those payments, deducted them, or whatever. With a record number of people working from home, some portion of those expenses might be tax deductible for some people, some people might receive reimbursements from an employer, etc.

(nobody said anything about an audit)

> I’ve certainly never needed to pull up my utility bills while paying taxes as a private person.

I think we can all agree that if you have never done this, it's unthinkable that anyone would ever do this.

[dead]
Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by justin66 on Friday March 25, 2022 @03:37PM (#30806269)
You would save the records for deductions or business expenses or whatever as a bookkeeping measure - and as a tax precaution, yes - even if you were not expecting an audit. Audits are fairly unusual.

(Way, way upthread jacquesm cited tax audits as a reason for these records to be physically provided, but they're a useful and common means of communication when employing a tax preparer or bookkeeper as well. And back to the original point, this is all even more likely to be true of an "old" person.)

The cost of saving paper records, for an individual, is fairly close to zero, whereas it's a colossal pain in the butt to track down stuff later. Make that mistake once and you won't do it again.

Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by rosndo on Friday March 25, 2022 @04:04PM (#30806505)
> You would save the records for deductions or business expenses or whatever as a bookkeeping measure - and as a tax precaution, yes - even if you were not expecting an audit. Audits are fairly unusual

I think you are just repeating original comment here. Regular people in regular situations will never need their old utility bills for tax purposes.

Those choosing to e.g. run a business, pick up various extra responsibilities in doing so. In that case it’s absolutely your own responsibility to maintain good records, and you should print electronic invoices if you so desire.

If you run a business and are using your utility bills as a basis for deductions, you’d have to be stupid to not safely store them (digitally or physically).

Paper invoices should be opt-in, not opt-out. Very few people actually require them.

Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by kube-system on Friday March 25, 2022 @03:16PM (#30806057)
> In what situation will an individual need to supply their utility bills to the taxman during an audit?

Under IRS rules, some people who WFH can often deduct part of their home expenses, including utilities.

See IRS Form 8891 line 21, labelled "Utilities"

Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by rosndo on Friday March 25, 2022 @04:08PM (#30806553)
As far as I can tell this exclusively applies to self-employed people, i.e. someone running a business from their home.
Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by kube-system on Friday March 25, 2022 @06:09PM (#30807481)
Post 2017 it does, only people who are 1099, so it includes many software engineers who are contractors. Before 2017, it included employees too. So, some plain-old w2 employees still have utility bills lying around subject to audit.
Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by lotsofpulp on Friday March 25, 2022 @10:28AM (#30802579)
There is a federal mortgage interest tax deduction, and there may also be a state level deduction depending on the state since they each have different tax laws. On the federal level, 90%+ people do not use the mortgage interest tax deduction because doing so would cost them more than not using it.
Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by kube-system on Friday March 25, 2022 @10:49AM (#30802830)
It is an American thing, and it's often more than just mortgage interest, as it is standard to have our property taxes and insurance(s) escrowed through the mortgage as well.
Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by Aaargh20318 on Friday March 25, 2022 @10:34AM (#30802644)
But the mortgage giver already sends those to the tax authority. How else do you think they have all your mortgage data pre-filled when you file your taxes ?
Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by athriren on Friday March 25, 2022 @11:17AM (#30803189)
In the United States, even paying for the highest level of TurboTax does not get me the ability to have my mortgage information prefilled. Still have to enter the information that Chase sent to the IRS on an IRS form in manually on my form. Tax preparation in the US is truly the wild west.
Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by kube-system on Friday March 25, 2022 @10:45AM (#30802774)
I wish my tax authority did that... on any of my tax returns.
Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by kwhitefoot on Friday March 25, 2022 @12:06PM (#30803856)
It's how it is done in Scandinavia and most of Europe. I only have to add a few numbers because I have some small investments offshore, otherwise everything including investments in mutual funds is already itemized.
Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by phil21 on Friday March 25, 2022 @10:42AM (#30802739)
It's an American urban legend passed down from a time it may or may not have mattered.

What did matter in living memory (thus passed down to at least this generation) is that saving utility bills for 7 year can establish credit.

My parents still tell me to do this to this day, since that's how they were able to qualify for a home loan having not participated in the credit system otherwise.

Nowadays most such transactions are reported to a credit bureau, so they are either already on record or (almost?) no banks will care to see them.

Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by SilasX on Friday March 25, 2022 @11:28AM (#30803326)
Huh? Paid utility bills don't help to establish a credit history on your credit report even today.
Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by amflare on Friday March 25, 2022 @11:44AM (#30803528)
It doesn't, but multiple years worth of rent/utility bills can be used as a substitute so long as you are willing to jump through a couple extra hoops and pay a little bit more in interest for the privilege.

My girlfriend just went though this process. She has no credit because she never got a CC and always saved up and paid for stuff like her car in cash. Over the winter she was looking to buy a house (didn't pan out for other reasons), and basically her only option was getting a loan manually underwritten. Part of that process was using a minimum of 2 years worth of bills as a replacement for a credit score. And the only loans available were several points more expensive than she could have gotten if she was able to do things the "normal" way.

Re:‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention... by SilasX on Friday March 25, 2022 @05:29PM (#30807227)
Yes, that was my point. If you can get the lender to look at your history, it matters, like anything else. But those transactions do not establish a credit history associated with your credit score.