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Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by ekianjo on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:22AM (#30790169)
> Instead of malware, a better approach to free expression would be to use messages in commit logs to send anti-propaganda messages and to issue trackers to share accurate news inside Russia of what is really happening in Ukraine at the hands of the Russian military, to cite two obvious possibilities

How about not taking sides instead of acting like a kid believing one side is black and the other white with absolutely no gradient in the middle? Also, propaganda goes both sides, just like in absolutely every conflict in History. Stop being a tool of your own government.

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by dmos62 on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:42AM (#30790544)
> How about not taking sides instead of acting like a kid

If you have the power to do something and you don't, that's taking a side. You either oppose something or you enable it. At least own that. If you're saying you're neutral, you either agree with the unpopular side and are scared to admit it, or you can't form an opinion because you're uninformed and thus uncivil, or you feel unaffected by what's happening and thus discompassionate. Either way, that's pretty much the definition of "acting like a kid".

By the way, everything is not propaganda: anti-propaganda can just be the truth.

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by BaronVonSteuben on Thursday March 24, 2022 @12:32PM (#30792174)
> If you have the power to do something and you don't, that's taking a side. You either oppose something or you enable it. At least own that. If you're saying you're neutral, you either agree with the unpopular side and are scared to admit it, or you can't form an opinion because you're uninformed and thus uncivil, or you feel unaffected by what's happening and thus discompassionate. Either way, that's pretty much the definition of "acting like a kid".

I think this is an interesting argument, and I think it translates to a real world example quite well. For example, if my older kid hits younger kid I have to either:

1. Punish the older kid, taking the "side" of the younger kid

2. Not punish the older kid, thus taking the "side" of the older kid

however I think there's more nuance here than just that, because either of the kids could be lying. I wasn't' there, I have no video footage or proof, so I can only investigate and interrogate, and at some point I have to make a decision. Often times it comes down to the question of which is worse? Punishing an innocent kid, or letting a crime go unpunished?

The answer to that is far from clear to me. As an authority and neutral arbiter, I have a duty to administer justice, and I don't think taking a view that punishing an innocence can be worse than not punishing a guilty (obviously individual circumstances really matter here).

I also have a full time job, and I can't arbitrate between my kids all day long. I have limited time/attention. Given that there are dozens of issues every day that come up, and I don't have enough bandwidth to handle them, some packets will by necessity have to drop.

How do you know which position on which issue is the "right" one to default too when you don't have enough information? Given your argument, you must default to one of them. What criteria do you use when you have limited info?

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by dmos62 on Friday March 25, 2022 @05:00AM (#30799930)
You described a challenging situation to arbiter. What if your kids were adults and one of them broke into the other one's house with the intent to murder him and his family?

I say that Ukraine has the right to sovereignty and I condemn Russia's assault on that right and on its people. It goes against what I want from the society I live in. There is no nuance there.

We could talk about war crimes that are seemingly being committed in droves by the Russian side. We might find nuances there. But, there's no nuance about the crime of starting the invasion in the first place.

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by ekianjo on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:52AM (#30790698)
> If you have the power to do something and you don't, that's taking a side.

Pushing political commit messages is not "power". If you like like everyone around you you are not a rebel, just a conformist.

And using indiscriminate IP-location malware to annoy people is the textbook definition of evil child behavior. I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to defend here.

> By the way, everything is not propaganda: anti-propaganda can just be the truth.

How do you know what the truth is when you have no foot on the ground?

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by dmos62 on Thursday March 24, 2022 @11:12AM (#30791020)
> Pushing political commit messages is not "power".

I'm not debating whether it works or whether it's the right form of activism. I'm responding to your comment. Namely you saying that taking a side is childish.

> If you like like everyone around you you are not a rebel, just a conformist.

If your goal is to follow the herd, that's bad. If it's to go in the opposite direction, that's the same thing. I'd encourage a person like that to think about more than himself.

> How do you know what the truth is when you have no foot on the ground?

Are you disputing the recent Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by mwcampbell on Thursday March 24, 2022 @11:31AM (#30791282)
> Are you disputing the recent Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

Not the GP. I don't specifically dispute that. But in a time when many fictional stories can be told through video, I think it's reasonable to be unsure and neutral on things that we don't have direct knowledge about. Put another way, I think being neutral and silent by default is a necessary defense against manipulation.

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by dmos62 on Friday March 25, 2022 @04:49AM (#30799875)
> Put another way, I think being neutral and silent by default is a necessary defense against manipulation.

I can sympathize with the sense of confusion, but this is one of the principal purposes of information warfare. When successful it does one of following things:

1. disengages people who would otherwise be opposed;

2. sows doubt and division;

3. makes people believe the propaganda is true.

We often fixate on #3, but #1 and #2 are the principal goals of today's information warfare, because they're much easier to achieve. When the other side's population doesn't know what to think, you're in a great position. It's effectively demobilizing the enemy.

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by krapp on Thursday March 24, 2022 @11:41AM (#30791444)
>Put another way, I think being neutral and silent by default is a necessary defense against manipulation.

But what if the purpose of the manipulation is to suppress dissent, or at least encourage passive acceptance of the status quo, by convincing people remain to neutral and silent?

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by mwcampbell on Thursday March 24, 2022 @11:53AM (#30791622)
The people who have certain knowledge of something wrong in the world, through firsthand experience or domain expertise, should certainly speak out. For example, I'm vocal about accessibility for blind people, perhaps to a fault. But I think we should be silent about things that we don't have direct knowledge about. Otherwise, we're no better than computers in a botnet sending out spam. That's why, lately, I've unsubscribed from multiple political mailing lists that keep pestering me to sign this petition or talk to my legislator about that important issue. I realize that I don't know enough to have an informed opinion on these things, and I don't want to be manipulated. (Yes, the fact that I unsubscribed implies that I went through a period where I was more involved in things I don't have expertise about; I was wrong in that.)
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by krapp on Thursday March 24, 2022 @02:08PM (#30793451)
>The people who have certain knowledge of something wrong in the world, through firsthand experience or domain expertise, should certainly speak out.

To whom? If everyone followed the rule you're proposing, the only people they could speak out to are people who share their firsthand experience or domain expertise. Communicating further would necessitate secondhand information or some form of media which can't be trusted, as it could possibly contain some manipulating element. Who could Ukrainians ask for help from? The Russians? Would everyone else be required to fly to Ukraine to try to verify the existence of the war firsthand before having an opinion?

There are more important things than being made a fool of sometimes. The risk of being manipulated exists no matter what you do, or don't do, and you can never have perfect knowledge of any situation, even if you're an eyewitness, because human perception itself is fallible, limited to a single perspective and prone to self-deception.

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by boffinism on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:32AM (#30790341)
Using the existence of shades of grey to deny the existence of black and white is equally childish in my opinion...
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by GranularRecipe on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:34AM (#30790363)
Open source is driven by many opioniated and idealistic people who also worry about the current geopolitical development. They might make their opinions known in a non-destructive manner.

You might not like it, fair enough, but expressing one's opinion in commit messages is neither childish nor an instrumentalisation by any government.

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by ekianjo on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:36AM (#30790418)
> expressing one's opinion in commit messages is neither childish nor an instrumentalisation by any government.

It's childish because it's incredibly naive to think that commit messages are going to change anyone's mind. Instead they will look like someone preaching for no reason. Next, how about doing an online petition as well? /s

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by _Nat_ on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:28AM (#30790280)
A lot of folks are just anti-war and are protesting the invasion for being an act of military-aggression.
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by WesolyKubeczek on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:34AM (#30790373)
Was this also your stance during BLM protests? Asking for a friend.
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by matsemann on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:30AM (#30790317)
Not taking a side is agreeing with the oppressor.
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by ekianjo on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:34AM (#30790384)
No, not taking sides is just not taking sides. There's no need to turn such a position into a shortcut to something else. It's as stupid as the kids saying "if you are not with us you are against us". Typical populist bullshit.
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by matsemann on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:36AM (#30790428)
How hard is it to just say "I think Russia is wrong for invading Ukraine and killing people"? That's all you have to do. Just write it.

If you can't do that, but still want to engage in the discussion on the topic, your standpoint is clear. You're not some holier person not taking a stand. You have taken one, you just don't dare to spell it out.

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by ekianjo on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:45AM (#30790579)
> If you can't do that, but still want to engage in the discussion on the topic, your standpoint is clear.

That's not the topic at hand. The topic is, you don't need to pollute every thing you work on out there with your preachy opinions on every single topic, especially when you are whole-fully ignorant about what's actually happening, the in-and-outs of the conflict, because you are in a state of constant propaganda, whether you are in Russia or in the West.

And this is not just about the conflict at hand, it's about this disgusting habit these days of bringing politics in all walks of life where it was not before.

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by matsemann on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:51AM (#30790688)
You can't blame people for doing whatever they can when they are literally being bombed. Same with BLM mentioned in another subthread, it's easy to don't care when the issues don't affect you, but for other's it's their daily life. Of course it colors what people do.

People who claim there were no politics before, were just oblivious to others' struggle. Which is ok, but it still happened, you were just sheltered or privileged.

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by baud147258 on Thursday March 24, 2022 @11:27AM (#30791230)
> You can't blame people for doing whatever they can when they are literally being bombed.

Are the authors of the change in question actually in Ukraine? And I'm pretty sure that technical minded people there could find better uses for their talents, rather than petty vandalism

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by ekianjo on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:58AM (#30790795)
> You can't blame people for doing whatever they can when they are literally being bombed.

I can't remember when people cared about the bombs falling everyday in Yemen. How absurd is it for people to suddenly care and cry publicly about one country's conflict while another much bloodier one, not too far away, is being completely ignored. Is their blood less red? Are their children worth less? Systemic racism maybe, since these are not white people?

Mass media (including social media nowadays) is what shapes what people care and feel concerned about. It's not about people's values, this goes on to say a lot more about how easy people can be manipulated to project violence onto anything they had no clue about 5 minutes ago, as long as you repeat it all day long.

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by Turing_Machine on Thursday March 24, 2022 @12:10PM (#30791853)
Because if I spend my time writing down everything I think is wrong with the world, I literally will not have time to do anything else.

Your cause is not more important than thousands of other causes, and my refusal to spend my time amplifying your viewpoint does not in any sense imply I agree with the opposing view.

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by matsemann on Thursday March 24, 2022 @12:16PM (#30791949)
That's a fair point, but not when one intentionally enters a discussion about a conflict. Can't both claim no side and simultaneously pretend the aggressor is just as bad as the protester.
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by mwcampbell on Thursday March 24, 2022 @12:43PM (#30792321)
If I'm not mistaken, though, the discussion here isn't about the Russia versus Ukraine conflict itself, but about appropriate ways to show support for a political cause in general, and whether it's even appropriate to do so in particular contexts. On that meta-issue, I think it's possible to state an opinion, without implying any position on the conflict of the moment. And if I'm not mistaken, some people are saying that it's obligatory to state an opinion on the conflict of the moment; that's what some of us are disagreeing with.
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by baud147258 on Thursday March 24, 2022 @11:23AM (#30791185)
I can still say that Russia is wrong for invading Ukraine and say that the protestware we're talking about in the thread is wrong too (a different, lesser wrong, though)
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by matsemann on Thursday March 24, 2022 @11:29AM (#30791249)
Of course. What I take issue with is the "don't choose sides"-people often say both are wrong, as if they are equally wrong. In these issues, it's one part killing or denying others their way of living, and others protesting the oppressors.
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by avgcorrection on Thursday March 24, 2022 @11:13AM (#30791038)
People with a contrarian streak are never going to performatively denounce something on command if they want to make a point which is unrelated to that denounciation.
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by gruez on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:48AM (#30790636)
So by this logic, if your blog/commit logs doesn't contain:

* russia invaded ukraine

* vaccines work

* wear a mask

* black lives matter

* trans women are women

* abortion is a right

then you're a pro-russian, vaccine-denying, anti-mask, white supremacist, transphobic, misogynist?

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by matsemann on Thursday March 24, 2022 @11:01AM (#30790845)
No one said that. I'm saying that if you cannot answer which "side" you're on, but still engage in the discussion (and thus have knowledge / interest in the subject), it's obvious for everyone to see.
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by gruez on Thursday March 24, 2022 @12:59PM (#30792529)
That's not what we were talking about though? In the context of this thread, we we talking about the behavior of open source projects, not people engaging in political debates.
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by Cederfjard on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:40AM (#30790494)
Are there limits to this, or do you think ”not taking sides” is a morally defensible position to have regarding everything? Is it ethical to be neutral when it comes to the holocaust?
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by mwcampbell on Thursday March 24, 2022 @11:24AM (#30791194)
I think it's OK to refrain from taking sides about anything that we don't have firsthand knowledge about. There's no shortage of political and moral busybodies in the world, especially now that we have the Internet. I'm sure I've been one at times. So I think it's not so bad if we start going in the other direction, just minding our own business and sticking to things we can actually do something about. I should get back to that.
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by Turing_Machine on Thursday March 24, 2022 @12:15PM (#30791925)
It's perfectly ethical to not be loudly and publicly performing an anti-holocaust view 24/7/365, and failing to do that does not make one "pro-holocaust".

The list of Bad Things is endless, and failing to address any one of them does not make you in favor of that Bad Thing. It just doesn't.

You're just trying to bully people into spending their time amplifying your particular protest, and bullying in itself is a Bad Thing.

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by swat535 on Thursday March 24, 2022 @12:35PM (#30792213)
Estonia, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland,.. remained neutral during Wolrd War II.

Are you saying they were agreeing with the oppressor? It must take some serious mental gymnastics on your part to write such statement.

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by raxxorrax on Thursday March 24, 2022 @11:46AM (#30791528)
Then you better be a well informed person or otherwise you will quickly become the latter.
[dead]
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by cryptoegorophy on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:45AM (#30790587)
Not silent when it is ukraine, but other non white part of the world - it is ok to be silent, right? BLM “peaceful “ protest also ok to be silent? Since when do we switched from Covid experts to ukraine experts? Can you even find ukraine on the map? The only non silent thing should be engraved in anyones head is - war is bad.
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by bitcharmer on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:30AM (#30790319)
Russia's aggression is pretty one sided. Not taking sides is like turning you eyes away.
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by pvaldes on Thursday March 24, 2022 @12:38PM (#30792257)
Cut the BS. One part has been reported mass butchering newborns and pregnant women in hospitals. I hardly could think in anything more wrong than this.

There is not 'I can explain it' or 'this is not what it seems' or 'they must have a reason' or 'just kidding' here. This is not normal behavior in humans.

There is not any gray area about the war crimes of the Russian army. Had been videotaped, narrated, proven and reported extensively. Each building is a proof. And now they are talking about using chemical weapons to speed up this genocide. Seriously, what Russians were expecting? A clap?

Not taking sides? We are animals brain-wired to develop a strong reaction of seek and destroy in this cases. In less civilized times the murderers would be hunted and mashed to grinded meat.

Not more excuses. Don't call us kids, silly, ignorant, inconvenient or Russophobes. We are furious. We want this to stop. Right now.

Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by cuteboy19 on Thursday March 24, 2022 @12:50PM (#30792416)
There are no "two sides" to imperialism.
Re:Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source by Errancer on Thursday March 24, 2022 @10:31AM (#30790331)
How about taking sides instead of acting like a kid believing the existence of gray negates the existence of white and black. Perspectivism is the beginning of inquiry, not the end of it. Stop being a tool of your own social superstitions.