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Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by kingkawn on Sunday March 20, 2022 @05:47PM (#30747006)
Most of the arguments in favor of the renewed development of nuclear power rely on faith in engineering culture to prevent catastrophic failures and avoid large-scale loss of habitability of areas around these plants. This faith does not account for conflict and significant social disruption. We are fortunate that so far the nuclear assets in Ukraine have not been critically disrupted. I hope this is not where and when we learn this lesson.
Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by AngryData on Sunday March 20, 2022 @06:01PM (#30747140)
It isn't like you have to blow up the reactor itself to disable a foreign nuclear plant. I see no reason why anybody would ever target a reactor core. There is a HUGE amount of electrical substation infrastructure outside of these plants which would take like 1/1000 the effort to damage or blow up as the reactor core itself and would shut the whole thing down. The only reason you would target a reactor core itself is to spread nuclear debri on purpose, which is still probably more effort than it would take to just make a dirty bomb and far less effective than a dirty bomb. Also you destroy all value in taking that territory, piss off every other country in the world likely prompting them to join the war against you, and likely spread the poison back into your own territory.
Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by nicoburns on Sunday March 20, 2022 @07:06PM (#30747724)
Would destroying the support infrastructure for these plants be any safer? My understanding is that almost all (if not all) nuclear power stations presently in operation need active cooling even after the reactor is shutdown. If that cooling infrastructure is disrupted then that could be just as disastrous as if the reactor core itself was targeted.
Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by lm28469 on Sunday March 20, 2022 @08:39PM (#30748579)
Hm yeah, just cut the cables carrying the electricity out
Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by Doxin on Tuesday March 22, 2022 @08:01AM (#30765011)
Power cables aren't unidirectional. The cables carrying power in are the same as the cables carrying power out.
Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by heartofadog on Sunday March 20, 2022 @08:25PM (#30748420)
I don't see much of any "reason" behind what this invading army has been doing for the past 3.5 weeks, actually. Or if it's even right to call them an army.

Anyway I don't think the concern is that they would target or otherwise intentionally sabotage the reactors -- but that nonetheless they would allow something bad (potentially seriously bad) to happen by pure neglect. Kind of like the way they managed to blow up Reactor 4 in the first place back in 1986.

Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by TheOtherHobbes on Sunday March 20, 2022 @07:33PM (#30747952)
Tac nuke ground burst + reactor core = extremely bad news.

And of course you can wait until the wind is blowing in the right direction.

Yes, there would be consequences. But there are also consequences for going on a random shooter spree, and they don't stop random shooters.

Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by tablespoon on Sunday March 20, 2022 @11:57PM (#30750061)
> It isn't like you have to blow up the reactor itself to disable a foreign nuclear plant. I see no reason why anybody would ever target a reactor core. There is a HUGE amount of electrical substation infrastructure outside of these plants which would take like 1/1000 the effort to damage or blow up as the reactor core itself and would shut the whole thing down.

If you attack that infrastructure, the core will melt down without suffering a direct attack.

IIRC, that's what happened at Fukushima: a tsunami took out the backup generators, which shut down the core cooling system, which then led to the core overheating and melting down.

Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by anarazel on Sunday March 20, 2022 @07:55PM (#30748139)
Spent fuel tank cooling not working isn't fun either. That needs power too.
Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by acidburnNSA on Sunday March 20, 2022 @06:10PM (#30747207)
With the fossil and biofuel status quo powering more than 80% of the world causing climate change and air pollution on the scale of 8 million deaths per year [1], I don't find this argument particularly compelling. Sure there are hazards with nuclear, but even in wild hypothesized scenarios the damage from not doing nuclear is worse. For perspective, fossil + biofuel kill a full Chernobyl's worth of people (short term plus long term deaths) every 7 hours, and counting.

And as for loss of habitability, the dose rates around Chernobyl are elevated but not incompatible with life. Around Fukushima, I'd join Elon Musk in eating any locally grown food. Better to avoid airplanes if you're concerned about those levels of radiation, below the threshold known to cause the smallest measurable increase in cancer (100 mSv acute, 300 mSv annual). Good read here: [2]

[1] https://www.who.int/health-topics/air-pollution#tab=tab_1

[2] https://thoughtscapism.com/2019/05/08/what-about-radioactive...

Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by Gwypaas on Sunday March 20, 2022 @07:45PM (#30748049)
Doesn't that make renewables the optimal solution? Recyclable, no pollution to speak of when generating electricity and no radiological risks.
Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by acidburnNSA on Sunday March 20, 2022 @08:54PM (#30748722)
Briefly setting aside the term 'renewable' and focusing on wind and solar, the primary disadvantage of wind and solar of course is their intermittency. Due to low capacity factors, you have to build a lot more capacity (in GW) than your peak demand.

For example, CA uses about 25 GW-day of electricity per day. To make that much on a perfectly calm CA winter day, you need to have about 100 GW of solar capacity standing by. Then, you need to also build energy storage/shifting systems that can shift the energy from the noontime peak to the night, where baseload demand never falls below 20 GWe.

Now consider that there are often 15-day wind lulls in huge regional areas, and sometimes these coincide with big cloudy areas.

The oft quoted "low" costs of wind and solar in levelized $/kWh completely ignore and hide the fact that you have to overbuild at this magnitude and include the storage. The overbuild also implies a massive over-taxing of earth's land and mineral resources to build and rebuild the collectors and storage system.

Saying solar is the cheapest form of energy is like saying kids tents in the yard are the cheapest form of housing, and just pretending the indoor plumbing and heating and pantry of the parent's house cost nothing.

Systems costs are what matter. LCOE must stop driving policy.

Building 30 GW of load-following nuclear would be cheaper and have far lower impact on the environment.

The alternate less cooperative answer is no. 'Renewables' as a concept are not the answer. Biofuel is renewable but causes climate change and air pollution while nuclear is low carbon and low pollution but not considered renewable.

Furthermore, nuclear fuel on earth can power 100% of our primary energy for 4 billion years using the known and demonstrated technology of breeder reactors. This is just as long as the nuclear fusion fuel that powers solar, wind, hydro, bio will last, and so nuclear is just as renewable as those.

Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by natmaka on Monday March 21, 2022 @04:26AM (#30751626)
Spreading out production units (mainly wind turbines) and mixing sources (wind, solar...) considerably lowers the burden of intermittency.

LCOE is pertinent because the very low total cost of electricity generated by renewables spares money, enabling investments needed to compensate intermittency (over-provisionning, storage...).

Not a single industrial breeder reactor works satisfactorily (after many decades of R&D backed by huge investments in nations).

Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by lm28469 on Sunday March 20, 2022 @08:44PM (#30748626)
The thing is we don't live in a fairy tale, we're limited in resources and time. We can't ditch both nuclear + fossil right now so we have to prioritize one over the other for the next xx years until we figure out a way of making renewables good enough, right now they're a good addition at best and a gimmick at worst. And it's not like renewables are a silver bullet either. If you ditch nuclear to import panels or wind mills from countries like China I'd like to see a full life cycle pollution/emission report
Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by throwaway6532 on Sunday March 20, 2022 @06:37PM (#30747469)
I'm not as worried about global warming as I used to be after taking a look at world demographics and learning a bunch of stuff about global supply chains and agricultural practices as a result of this conflict breaking out.

World population is likely to steeply decline, and globalization plus high living standards will most probably go away. We just won't consume as much energy or make and trade as much stuff in the future.

Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by 14u2c on Sunday March 20, 2022 @08:22PM (#30748391)
So basically you are hoping it all sorts itself out? Maybe it will, but that seems like an incredibility risky position for humanity to make without hedging our bets.
Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by throwaway6532 on Sunday March 20, 2022 @10:29PM (#30749413)
We're long past the point of hedging our bets. Put it this way... when the world runs out of NPK fertilizers (or can't access them) and billions of people start to starve to death, climate change will no longer be seen as the big risk. After going down the rabbit hole that is modern agricultural practices, and more importantly the supply chains that underpin them, the writing is absolutely on the wall for humanity.
Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by kadoban on Sunday March 20, 2022 @11:30PM (#30749890)
> World population is likely to steeply decline, and globalization plus high living standards will most probably go away. We just won't consume as much energy or make and trade as much stuff in the future.

So, rewording that: a bunch of people will die, enough to reduce the global population, the ones who are left are going to be miserable.

And all of that makes you _less_ worried?

Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by throwaway6532 on Sunday March 20, 2022 @11:51PM (#30750020)
Well, I said it makes me less worried _about climate change_. It makes me significantly more worried about the political violence that historically breaks out under such circumstances and the wars that get started by nations to secure scarce and precious resources. The Guano Wars will look tame in comparison to whoever decides to go after the phosphate rock reserves in Morocco.
Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by jdkee on Sunday March 20, 2022 @05:55PM (#30747081)
Western democracies, Japan and South Korea are politically stable so power plant disruptions due to armed conflict on their territories are likely a relatively low risk.
Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by KennyBlanken on Sunday March 20, 2022 @08:40PM (#30748588)
The US and UK nuclear programs - commercial and military - are littered with incidents, many of them fatal or releasing significant quantities of radioactive waste. In one case, someone was likely murdered as part of a coverup (google Karen Silkwood.) The attitude during much of the US nuclear program was "you're either with us or you're for those commie bastards."

In Japan, TEPCO demonstrated a long-running, stunning disregard for safety that led to the Fukashima disaster (and it was not Japan's first nuclear power plant disaster, either): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_nuclear_disaster#Pri...

And as a reminder, Chernobyl happened because a bunch of engineers were basically engaged in a dick-measuring contest, likely to satisfy some apparatchik.

I'd say the world's nuclear power programs have demonstrated extensively that humans as a whole can't handle the responsibilities, and now we have numerous, much safer alternatives.

It's an absolute miracle we haven't had an accidental detonation of a nuclear weapon near a population center given bombs have even been released from planes, in some cases with multiple safety systems satisfied - and that the permissive action link system was almost completely bypassed by petulant air force commanders who had weapons set to (I wish I were making this up) codes of all zeros.

Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by natmaka on Monday March 21, 2022 @04:29AM (#30751644)
Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by danhor on Sunday March 20, 2022 @06:37PM (#30747475)
If prosperous (as that's usually a match for a low chance of armed conflicht) nations mostly expand to non-fossil energy sources that aren't available/viable for developing/poorer nations, this is an issue since their power system won't profit from a large amount of research & investments on how to run a non-fossil fuel based system.

With the energy usage of non-western countries exploding quickly this could be a major hinderance to stopping climate change if all prosperous nations go all-in on nuclear and discourage other countries from doing so because of the risk.

A non realistic scenario tbh, it's very unlikely that e.g. germany will construct new nuclear power plants and a lot of not-very-stable countries already use nuclear power as we're seeing right now.

Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by pvaldes on Sunday March 20, 2022 @07:16PM (#30747825)
Russia has been politically stable for the last 20 years also
Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by KennyBlanken on Sunday March 20, 2022 @08:29PM (#30748457)
Russia has had several significant nuclear material release incidents in the last twenty years, only detected because the waste/fallout plume reached monitoring sites outside the country. The most recent was the 2018 disaster involving a nuclear torpedo.

Russia has used its reactors to produce materials to conduct political assassinations on foreign soil, which have ended up injuring and contaminating many innocent people.

Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by himinlomax on Sunday March 20, 2022 @07:38PM (#30747993)
Poisoning and harassing political opponents does not strike me as particularly stable.
Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by throwaway6532 on Sunday March 20, 2022 @06:41PM (#30747509)
What about Russia? What if famine strikes and the nuclear engineers at a given power plant starve to death?
Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by pasquinelli on Sunday March 20, 2022 @06:16PM (#30747256)
politically stable for now. how long is the average period of political stability?
Re:After 600 hours 64 workers at Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear... by kingkawn on Sunday March 20, 2022 @07:50PM (#30748085)
That you cite Japan as an example of reliable nuclear safety after Fukushima…