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Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by zmmmmm on Saturday March 19, 2022 @12:40AM (#30731096)
It does seem that that there is a pretty strong push for return to on site in a lot of organizations. However it is interesting the premise is often not well articulated beyond diffuse sentiments such as improving "team work" etc etc. Few seem to be arguing that productivity is the issue. By and large, everyone is acknowledging that the work gets done either way.

Which leaves the question of what is motivating it? I feel like this is more managers struggling to recapture their previous sense of identity which was founded in some way on there being a physical place full of warm bodies with a specific culture shaped by management through various decisions. Without that managers are left with a much more intangible sense of what their role and value is. Everything seems a lot more hollow if your only reason to exist is to deliver on bare bones work requirements. Then, managers also feel they have a lot of influence over employees by controlling their physical environment which they don't have with WFH.

The problem the managers have is, the factors in favor of WFH are pretty clear and objective. Just eliminating commute saves most employees a couple of hours a day which is already probably more productivity gain than you could achieve through any other kind of workplace measure. The benefits for the environment, reduction in burden on infrastructure, etc etc are all pretty easy to add up.

So we are left with management weirdly struggling to assert a rationale made up entirely of intangibles against pretty obvious hard objective facts. It's going to be pretty interesting to see who wins this one.

Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by NeverFade on Saturday March 19, 2022 @12:44AM (#30731125)
There are many considerations that organizations have, that they will never articulate to their employees because they are either orthogonal or to some degree opposed to these employees' interests.

As a notable example, it's much easier for employees to hop between remote jobs. Forcing you into a physical location is a way to lock you into the job: you socialize and make friends at work, you buy a house close to work, you build an entire life around work.

No employer will tell their employees "let's all get back to the office so you will find it harder to leave your role even if we underpay and overwork you."

Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by derefr on Saturday March 19, 2022 @01:31AM (#30731381)
A slightly more sympathetic concern: remote work makes a manager's job harder. Said job still does get done either way; but it's the difference between a manager being able to goof off for most of the day and end up finding out everything they need to know anyway through simple off-hand questions whenever someone walks by; vs. needing to actively arrange high-scheduling-overhead Zoom meetings + actively probe one's reports on Slack for relevant updates.
Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by allisdust on Saturday March 19, 2022 @02:11AM (#30731569)
That's what the daily Standups are for. And if that's not sufficient, the manager isn't suited for management anyway.
Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by pragmatic on Saturday March 19, 2022 @01:18PM (#30735587)
There’s always a shortage of good X whether it’s devs, doctors or managers. The ones that already struggling in the office aren’t going to have a better time in a wfh env.
Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by 6510 on Saturday March 19, 2022 @02:51AM (#30731745)
Reminds me of something I had noticed: There are a lot of occupations that previously (sometimes long ago) required a good bit of expertise and a good bit of thinking that nowadays have been placed under managers who took the thinking (and very often fake the experience doing the work they plan or have outdated experience)

For some barely logical reason the more complicated work and the higher salary came with a kind of military authority position that use to be reserved for the level above or (longer ago) didn't exist.

This gets interesting where management tasks, like all other tasks, need to be optimized. If it is the same person doing both the tasks and the planning optimization happens naturally. A is compared to B, one goes over the advantages and disadvantages of either and makes a choice.

But now the manager has to chose between his own comfort and/or the effort he has to make and that of his underlings and the actual productivity. I don't think we need numbers to know what most would chose when the options are themselves or others. Its a damn hard choice to make objectively.

But the thing is, didn't we get these big brain high salary guys to make everyone under them work more efficiently? I think comfort in a job makes the largest contribution to productivity out of all factors. At one end of the scale people just start walking off at the other you get the [rare] unimaginable performance only seen in people who love what they are doing.

WFH is going to make management that much harder but also more valuable. If one is not excited about that the job seems to have evolved beyond capabilities.

What more do we need than the employee himself stating: "I cant do the work like this" in a context where we know others are doing it with great success.

Video chat is like the way PDF tries to replicate the paper office. I'm sure people are already building parsers for video chat and failing to match organized exchanges.

I imagine some kind of analogy with using whatsapp as a bug tracker. Surely it would kinda work to some extend? You would be able to find things you know are in the log but if you don't know it is there it is going to be a huge waste of time. If the person filling the ticket has the tools to make that extra inch of effort it saves the person on the other end of it a mile of scrolling.

A water cooler is designed to provide cups of water. It is only suppose to do one thing and it does it well.

Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by scarface74 on Saturday March 19, 2022 @01:42AM (#30731439)
Not forcing me to come to work and being able to work from anywhere in the US is one of the major reasons for me keeping my job.

I refinanced last year to a 15 year mortgage planning for this to be our “forever home”. I woke up one morning and I asked my wife did she want to move to one of the tax free states. We can save $12K a year and try some place different for a few years.

Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by pragmatic on Saturday March 19, 2022 @01:14PM (#30735556)
I’ve actually heard this one.

Managers happy that employees bought a house bc “now you’re stuck here”. Which isn’t too far from the truth.

There are or where a lot of places where a specialty like networking and various tech fields might only have one or two major employers in the area.

Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by notimetorelax on Saturday March 19, 2022 @01:28AM (#30731365)
I keep reading those comments where those proverbial managers want this or that. I don’t understand where it comes from - managers also people with similar needs to individual contributors. Myself, being a manager I’m not looking forward to us going to office and the teams are performing well as is. My peer managers are is a similar opinion.

Is it the banal they vs us, search for an enemy and cause of one’s unhappiness?

Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by stkdump on Saturday March 19, 2022 @02:47AM (#30731733)
I keep reading those comments that almost nobody wants to go to the office. In my (European) company, maybe ~80 SWEs, people were given the choice to either mostly go to back to the office (4 out of 5 days) or mostly work from home (3 out of 5 days at home, hot desking in the office). After 2 years of mostly having no choice and being forced out of the office, 80% of them decided to mostly work from the office after the pandemic. We always had a handful people working fully remote, and I think 1 or 2 asked if they could switch to that permanently to be able to live somewhere else. But otherwise people mostly want to be in the office. Notably people outside engineering seem to prefer WFH much more. I wonder why we are so special.
Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by yourapostasy on Tuesday March 22, 2022 @05:44AM (#30764275)
US commutes are especially grueling for many Americans compared to Europeans, I believe. The excellent urban and suburban European public transit makes commuting even for an hour each way tolerable, because someone else is doing the driving. I’ve heard this advantage is substantially eroded for younger European generations who are effectively locked out of affordable housing within easy commute of public transit hubs.

That generational housing affordability factor might also help explain some of the WFH sentiment split between older and younger generations, and between management and IC. Older generations tend to as an aggregate have already locked in their housing cost basis in generally desirable areas with better commute characteristics, and be more represented in management.

Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by dbetteridge on Saturday March 19, 2022 @03:01AM (#30731788)
I would imagine in Europe compared to the USA there are a lot more people in very small apartments or share houses in the cities, they do not lend themselves well to home working.

Additionally thats one company, maybe you just have a particularly social group of swes who like each other and a good office environment

Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by jokethrowaway on Saturday March 19, 2022 @05:35AM (#30732415)
This, I have been working remotely long before COVID and even if I could stay at home I was going to the office to see friends / have lunch / hit the gym / grab a beer.

Nothing productive was getting done during those office days but they definitely made the job more tolerable and contributed to me not job hopping earlier.

Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by stkdump on Saturday March 19, 2022 @04:06AM (#30732076)
Hm, average apartment size in this city: 790 sq ft, average USA: 880 sq ft. Average household size my country: 1.99 ppl, average USA: 2.5 ppl. I guess we just have better working conditions in the office than average or in the USA.
Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by react_burger38 on Saturday March 19, 2022 @09:52AM (#30733695)
A better comparison would be median single family home size in US, which is around 2,300 sq ft [1]. Over 60% of housing units in US are single family homes [2].

[1]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/456925/median-size-of-si... [2]: https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/ahs/data/interactive...

Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by jokethrowaway on Saturday March 19, 2022 @05:36AM (#30732419)
USA houses are massive.

Space is ridiculously expensive in Europe and nobody is used to it, so the market rarely offer that.

Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by gota on Saturday March 19, 2022 @01:07PM (#30735491)
Can most of you walk or bike to work?
Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by stkdump on Saturday March 19, 2022 @02:56PM (#30736608)
I guess ~15 people bike to work, the rest uses cars or public transport. I don't think anyone walks to work.
Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by midhhhthrow on Saturday March 19, 2022 @02:05AM (#30731532)
Managers tend to be more extroverted and thus also more lonely at home. Several even admitted this to me. And so they want to make everyone come back to the office so they can have their social needs met. But the way they phrase it is, it’s easier to communicate and have meetings
Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by weatherlite on Saturday March 19, 2022 @02:59AM (#30731777)
Which is understandable. WFH people are more introverted so they want to have their needs met by staying home. I'm introverted WFH btw.
Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by adrianN on Saturday March 19, 2022 @02:08AM (#30731547)
Whether one prefers WFH or the office strongly depends on ones personality. I wouldn't be surprised if the personality type that tends to become a manager also tends to prefer to work in an office environment.
Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by qaq on Saturday March 19, 2022 @01:38AM (#30731416)
Because mandates are coming from managers? Or are suggesting they are coming from ICs?
Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by mouzogu on Saturday March 19, 2022 @02:28AM (#30731662)
If your manager told you to push your team back into the office. Would you do that or resist?

That's my view that management are there to enforce the often unpleasant demands of those above. In most cases anyway.

Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by zmmmmm on Saturday March 19, 2022 @05:01PM (#30737553)
that's something similar to my situation.

While I'm not "resisting" (I'm communicating that this is the organisational preference) I'm making it clear to the team that as long as they stay highly functional and get work done, there's going to be no mandate and people can make their own choices. They are all choosing 80% WFH.

But our office space sucks. I think it would be a little different if we had really nice space.

Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by la64710 on Saturday March 19, 2022 @04:28PM (#30737307)
Upper management … you will ask your team to come to office as soon as you get the memo from upper management. <shrugs>
Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by freyr on Saturday March 19, 2022 @06:18AM (#30732604)
Someone in the management chain is making that decision.
Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by dvtrn on Saturday March 19, 2022 @12:43AM (#30731109)
Which leaves the question of what is motivating it?

As someone who works in a software shop that sells directly to this sector, I have a guess (and it’s just a guess but a quasi-informed one):

Office/Building leases.

Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by rtomanek on Saturday March 19, 2022 @02:02AM (#30731527)
What about them?
Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by swearwolf on Saturday March 19, 2022 @03:25AM (#30731895)
Many companies, like mine, are somewhere in the middle of a 10 year lease with very steep early exit penalties. People think that having everyone working from home saves the company money, but when it comes to the office, chances are it’s already a sunk cost. In my company’s case, we’re paying for quite a bit of space, but currently allowing people to choose whether to come in or not. Most of the time only a handful of people do, but the office is still there whether 10, 100 or 1,000 people are using it. Plus, there’s a lot of capitalized equipment set up there, already paid for and waiting for people to use it. Moving out would be expensive (because of the lease break fees), and a hassle. So instead, the people in charge of a lot of companies probably rationalize that they might as well get some benefit out of those sunk costs by forcing people to use them again.
Re:Ready to Work at Lesser Salaries or Even Quit, Employees ... by thesumofall on Saturday March 19, 2022 @02:31AM (#30731677)
I think it originates from the feeling that cross-team innovations are somehow more difficult to pull off. Is this really measurable? No. Would it put a company at risk if there is a chance that such kind of innovation were reduced by 25%? Possibly.

Combine this with the fear of many managers that they will not be able to change policy once they allowed everyone to work fully from home and you get the prevalent policies