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Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by pie_flavor on Friday March 18, 2022 @04:12PM (#30726946)
This is the culmination of about a decade of reinforcing the idea that political actions don't count as violating norms if the actions are against someone who violates other norms of yours.
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by whatshisface on Friday March 18, 2022 @04:25PM (#30727073)
Or maybe just the culmination of internet libertarians who stick to principles being out-populated by more average people who stick to each other (that is a nice way of phrasing the practice of putting popularity before ideals but it's also true to its real nature).
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by jollybean on Friday March 18, 2022 @05:01PM (#30727470)
This is disturbing to read.

This notion that somehow 'FOSS' is a moral ideal that stands above others is rubbish.

If you're helping Russians drop bombs on Mauripool that's a choice.

You can also choose not to do that.

That concerns an 'ideal'.

There are issues at hand of much greater consequence and idealism that 'internet librarians' pretending that they are consequential in this context.

'More Average People', like accountants and teachers, are literally right now upholding their 'ideals' by learning how to use a weapon and defending their homes with their lives against literally the Russian Empire. That is an 'ideal' thankfully none of us will ever have to contemplate upholding.

Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by emodendroket on Friday March 18, 2022 @05:31PM (#30727797)
I think it is a little bit more complicated than that when you're taking sweeping actions like banning Russians from sport (something we managed to avoid in the Cold War but apparently not this time). I also wonder if you'd take the same line about someone seizing your bank account, because every American, by the standard we are now using, is culpable for the Iraq War.
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by ineedasername on Friday March 18, 2022 @08:52PM (#30729694)
like banning Russians from sport (something we managed to avoid in the Cold War but apparently not this time)

That isn't as persuasive a point as you might want it to be. It may be the case that we are, now, simply being more comprehensive in defending against a descent back into those awful cold war times. Once we were already in the thick of it during the Cold War, even a little bit of cooperation was useful in not descending even further.

It's like a phase transition. When society is already functioning at a higher level of cooperation, appropriate consequences of deviating from that are highly exclusionary. But the game-theoretic risk/reward balance changes when society is functioning at a more adversarial level. At these different phase states, an action that may incentivise de-escalation in one phase state may have a different (even inverse) effect in another phase state.

Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by emodendroket on Saturday March 19, 2022 @02:46AM (#30731728)
I'm not sure I would have described the last twenty years or so as a high watermark of global stability and accord.
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by ineedasername on Saturday March 19, 2022 @01:04PM (#30735466)
I didn't call it the high water mark, just a higher level of functioning & cooperation than the cold war. I think that's an accurate statement.

But now that you've raised the question, it's difficult for me to think of any stretch of decades that was definitively better, certainly not in the last 100 years. I might look far back to the Pax Romana, but that couldn't be considered global in nature. I'd argue that it's probably only at some point in the past 100 years that regional civilizations became interconnected enough for us to even consider things as a truly global system.

Please note that I'm not claiming the last 20 years have actually been good in terms of global peace, stability, accord, etc., just that it seems a bit better than the recent decades prior to that. By one narrow metric, per Capita war-related deaths, we're doing quite a bit better. Of course these things are far from evenly distributed across the globe, and it seems like wider stability sometimes relies on allowing awful things to happen on a smaller scale. And I don't think it's much consolation to those dying in conflicts to tell them "no really you should be joyed to live at a time when so few people have their lives torn apart the way yours is right now".

All of that strays from the topic of my original comment though, which again compared current times to cold war times.

Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by emodendroket on Saturday March 19, 2022 @03:19PM (#30736792)
I disagree unless we mean, in a very narrow sense, "peer" challenges. Clearly the US hegemonic status went largely unchallenged for a while, but I don't agree with your characterization of the period as more peaceful than previous times, and therefore warranting a radical break with the past to preserve.
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by ineedasername on Saturday March 19, 2022 @05:09PM (#30737597)
I honestly want to explore this topic further. I am not so closed off to the possibility that I'm wrong that I am unreceptive to counter arguments, so I hope you'll engage the topic with me a bit more:

peaceful is an vague term, but some of the language I have used is not much more precise. However I did mention one somewhat narrow metric, per-capita wartime deaths, and the world has been much better in this area during the the last 20-30 years than previously. What are your thoughts on that aspect of this discussion?

On the more ambiguous connotations of what I wrote, I will clarify the idea that was uppermost in my mind when I made my comments:

Essentially, a conflict that is catastrophic for the entire world is less likely (at least prior to recent events) during the last 20-30 years. The fall of the Soviet empire left no two adversaries so antagonistic to each other, each with world-destroying capabilities, that we have had to constantly worry about such a conflict breaking out. We have not had to walk so carefully on egg shells to avoid reaching that point. North Korea has only recently become the nation most likely to initiate a nuclear conflict, and I would still rate that as a lower probability than cold-war era direct US <-> Soviet conflict, and the capabilities of North Korea in this area are still too primitive for a conflict with them to inflict the same scale of damage as direct Soviet/US aggression.

Certainly horrific local and regional conflicts have still prevailed in some areas of the world, perhaps only slightly reduced (arguably not reduced at all, and worse in some regions) but their potential to spill over into a wider world-scale conflict remained exceedingly low compared to prior decades. They are less dangerous to the wider world because some of those cold-war era conflicts were proxy wars that risked escalation to direct conflict between military super powers.

Consider that the Vietnam War could easily have been won by either the US or Soviets if either of those powers had been willing to bring their full and complete military might to bear against their proxy opposition within that country. Indeed there was a constant tension that such a thing might happen and bring the puppet masters behind the North & South Vietnamese into direct conflict with each other.

This was perhaps even more true during the Korean War, with the added risk of more significant Chinese involvement & explicit threats by the US that nuclear options were on the table. The only thing that mitigated the potential for global nuclear war was that US nuclear capabilities were still relatively limited, Soviet nuclear capabilities even further behind, and Chinese nukes a decade or more away from completion. (by which point we'd progressed past the sino-soviet split so an alliance between those two powers was pretty much off the table) But during that conflict there was still significant possibility that a conflict on the scale of WWII, with slightly more advanced technology, could erupt & include a major nuclear component as well.

And of course there was the idiotic brinkmanship if the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Nothing of that scale has been anywhere near as probable after the end of the cold war. Having grown up in the twilight years itf the cold war, I can directly attest to the global tension of those times, and the global sigh of relief as they ended. In the years since then we have never approached that level of tension until today, with the Ukrainian invasion, where small echoes of those times can now be felt.

This is the thrust behind my comments. That perhaps local & regional conflicts have seen little change, but world-wide existential threats from military conflict are-- comparatively-- a much reduced concern.

Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by malka on Friday March 18, 2022 @06:39PM (#30728508)
It's not that they are guilty. It is impossible to harm a state without harming its citizen in the process.
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by emodendroket on Friday March 18, 2022 @06:58PM (#30728694)
How is the state being harmed by stuff like people vandalizing shops for having Cyrillic letters on the storefront, I wonder.
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by diordiderot on Friday March 18, 2022 @07:18PM (#30728874)
Stupid people do stupid things all the time. Clearly not an educated tactic. No one with an anything above the brain stem would do that, and that's not what's being argued for.

Racism isn't the point, crippling the Russian state is. Assuming anything else smells like bad faith.

Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by emodendroket on Friday March 18, 2022 @08:06PM (#30729303)
> Racism isn't the point, crippling the Russian state is. Assuming anything else smells like bad faith.

One incident related in the story is someone slipping malware into a node library which appears, among other collateral damage, to have deleted the archives one NPO had collected of the war hoping to document Russian war crimes. So really I'm not sold on it being that different.

Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by smsm42 on Saturday March 19, 2022 @01:26AM (#30731360)
Do you have a link describing which NPO was that and what exactly happened?
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by emodendroket on Saturday March 19, 2022 @02:47AM (#30731735)
https://github.com/RIAEvangelist/node-ipc/issues/308

Draw your own conclusions about authenticity but it doesn't sound implausible.

Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by smsm42 on Sunday March 20, 2022 @12:35AM (#30740149)
Anonymous post without any details... Yeah, I smell some substance that comes out of a bull.
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by scaramanga on Sunday March 20, 2022 @02:56PM (#30745466)
Huge parts of the Russian state are "infrastructure necessary for civil life" attacking those would be contrary to international humanitarian law.

But there is also the tactical issue of whether such attacks would have the desired effect. Imagine if Russia would attempt to "cripple the US state" to stop the war in Iraq... I think the average Joe in America would feel quite threatened by that notion. As a corollary, consider this: as a response, would Joe be more likely turn against his state, or realise that he desperately needs to support it, in order to defend his way of life?

Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by Viliam1234 on Saturday March 19, 2022 @06:26AM (#30732635)
> It is impossible to harm a state without harming its citizen in the process.

Technically, there is a way to hurt a state while helping its citizens -- help them move away, to a better place.

Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by tracker1 on Friday March 18, 2022 @07:29PM (#30728982)
Targeted missile strikes on the homes of the leadership and military executives would be a way to do so, while minimizing direct harm to the population.

Of course, actually targeting elites in power isn't something elites in power want to promote.

Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by emodendroket on Friday March 18, 2022 @08:44PM (#30729627)
Oh come off it, the notion of collateral damage-free missile strikes is a fantasy, and there are obvious reasons not to pursue a hot war with a nuclear power.
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by tracker1 on Friday March 18, 2022 @09:12PM (#30729849)
I never suggested that it would be collateral free... I said specifically "minimizing" the impact. That said, I don't support the practice, only making the point that there are in fact better options, including those with military action.
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by formerly_proven on Saturday March 19, 2022 @08:48AM (#30733332)
You can observe the difference between a military largely focused on PGMs and a military focused on 152mm artillery and unguided MLRS right now in this very war.
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by emptysongglass on Saturday March 19, 2022 @01:42AM (#30731435)
More than 71 percent of Russians support this war so your conclusion doesn't seem apt: https://t.me/ukrainenowenglish/1935
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by wartijn_ on Saturday March 19, 2022 @02:42AM (#30731711)
> Source: data from two surveys, made by the group of independent Russian sociologists, obtained by Radio Svoboda

It would be nice if there was a link to those sources. This isn't worth much more than "trust me bro"

Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by emptysongglass on Saturday March 19, 2022 @02:53AM (#30731752)
Good point. The true numbers appear to be closer to the mid-60s [1] but Washington Post [2] and CNN [3] both report numbers closer to 50.

Which ever of the polls you choose to believe, this is not a war largely unsupported by its citizens.

[1] https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/07/russia-s-tricky-opin...

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/08/russia-publi...

[3] https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2022/02/europe/russia-ukrain...

Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by emodendroket on Saturday March 19, 2022 @03:48AM (#30732001)
The looming Iraq analogy fits here too: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/rally-round-the-flag-opin...

> Iraq dominated the headlines throughout the fall of 2002 and into the winter of 2003. Public opinion on the wisdom of war, however, stabilized relatively early and slightly in favor of war. Gallup found that from August 2002 through early March 2003 the share of Americans favoring war hovered in a relatively narrow range between a low of 52 percent and a high of 59 percent. By contrast, the share of the public opposed to war fluctuated between 35 percent and 43 percent.

Earlier reporting had it in excess of 70% support: https://news.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-america...

Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by LudwigNagasena on Friday March 18, 2022 @04:49PM (#30727341)
The culture of those “average people” stems from the beliefs of Calvinist fanatics that fled England because it wasn’t radical enough.
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by whatshisface on Friday March 18, 2022 @04:55PM (#30727402)
What's Calvinism got to do with Russia?
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by LudwigNagasena on Friday March 18, 2022 @05:23PM (#30727712)
It has nothing to do with Russia. It has to do with stuff like inherent sinfulness, the promotion of social righteousness, the exhibition of the Kingdom of Heaven to the world, double predestination and whatever else Puritans and other Calvinists who became the American elite believed in and promoted. The views of those people who were considered fanatics back in Europe became the norm in the US.
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by emodendroket on Friday March 18, 2022 @05:29PM (#30727777)
I think people get a little carried away with this. I'd bet money that the average American cannot even describe the difference between Protestantism and Catholicism besides something facile like "they have a pope." There aren't even any Protestants sitting on the Supreme Court.

In a historical sense, it's very geographically dependent. Before states got rid of established churches, Virginia, for instance, established the Episcopal church, while Massachusetts established the Congregational church.

Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by LudwigNagasena on Friday March 18, 2022 @06:43PM (#30728544)
> I'd bet money that the average American cannot even describe the difference between Protestantism and Catholicism besides something facile like "they have a pope." There aren't even any Protestants sitting on the Supreme Court.

The modern American culture simply descends from Calvinist culture, by no means it is the same. Just like you wouldn’t expect a fish to explain its ancestry to you, you wouldn’t expect an American to do the same.

Some people seem to believe that if you remove a belief in God, a sudden discontinuous cultural gap appears. But there is no reason to assert such thing. An absence of belief in God doesn’t make Americans culturally more similar to Buddhists than to their ancestors, they still inherit similar values and social practices. The American culture experienced an abrupt shift from the British culture due to the founder effect, but from that point it pretty much developed continuously. (Well, of course like all cultures, it experienced outside influence but it wasn’t as impactful.)

> In a historical sense, it's very geographically dependent. Before states got rid of established churches, Virginia, for instance, established the Episcopal church, while Massachusetts established the Congregational church.

There is a book called The Faiths of the Founding Fathers by David L. Holmes, it covers explanation of the sheer influence Calvinism had in the US.

By the way, is it surprising that (1) Harvard originally had a Calvinist church. (2) Harvard is located in New England, the land of radical Protestants aka Puritans. (3) Harvard is the most prestigious university.

My point is simply that American “average people” are in no way simply average people if such thing even exists.

Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by mordero on Friday March 18, 2022 @06:09PM (#30728176)
I don't think his point was directly related to people's religious views today, but the type of people who originally came to the US and how their views and norms have impacted the culture up to today.
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by emodendroket on Friday March 18, 2022 @06:59PM (#30728704)
Well I'd go a little further and say that it's getting too clever to act like the most important thing to understand how Americans think is the details of a dispute that happened before most of their ancestors came and that they can't even describe in broad strokes.
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by thfuran on Friday March 18, 2022 @07:21PM (#30728915)
One doesn't need to know history to be affected by it.
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by emodendroket on Friday March 18, 2022 @08:07PM (#30729317)
That's obvious. Who would argue the opposite?
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by SamoyedFurFluff on Friday March 18, 2022 @04:38PM (#30727211)
Internet libertarians definitely also stick it to each other in dumb ways whenever they think their cause is right. Let’s not kid ourselves; an average person wouldn’t know how to wield open source for their personal political nonsense. It would precisely be a technocrat who thinks they’re enlightened.
Re:On the Weaponisation of Open Source by whatshisface on Friday March 18, 2022 @04:56PM (#30727418)
>an average person wouldn’t know how to wield open source for their personal political nonsense

I am close to an average person in this regard because I am a free-rider on other people's enlightened steering: all I do is install stuff and in exchange I get privacy and security.