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Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @04:45PM (#30703857)
Here are the first two paragraphs on the MMT Wikipedia article:

> Modern Monetary Theory or Modern Money Theory (MMT) is a heterodox[1] macroeconomic theory that describes currency as a public monopoly and unemployment as evidence that a currency monopolist is overly restricting the supply of the financial assets needed to pay taxes and satisfy savings desires.[2][3] MMT is opposed to the mainstream understanding of macroeconomic theory, and has been criticized by many mainstream economists.[4][5][6]

> MMT says that governments create new money by using fiscal policy and that the primary risk once the economy reaches full employment is inflation, which can be addressed by gathering taxes to reduce the spending capacity of the private sector.[7] MMT is debated with active dialogues about its theoretical integrity,[8] the implications of the policy recommendations of its proponents, and the extent to which it is actually divergent from orthodox macroeconomics.[9]

Regarding this being a "test" of MMT, I don't see why. The first part of the first sentence of that second paragraph, MMT says that governments create new money by using fiscal policy and that the primary risk once the economy reaches full employment is inflation, which seems to be precisely what has happened, no?

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by IncRnd on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:27PM (#30704318)
> ...and that the primary risk once the economy reaches full employment is inflation, which seems to be precisely what has happened, no?

Certainly, there is inflation. There isn't full employment.

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by drexlspivey on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:34PM (#30704391)
Unemployment < 4% is basically full employment. People that are changing jobs are temporarily unemployed. Another metric you can use to reach the same conclusion is that # of job openings > unemployed work force
Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by AceJohnny2 on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:49PM (#30704571)
How is "unemployment" defined in the US? Take those numbers with a grain of salt.

In France, you were counted as "unemployed" if you were registered with the national employment agency and actively looking for employment according to their criteria.

If you didn't find anything (for example because the opportunities on offer were too far away, or various other reasonably human reasons) after a certain time, the agency dropped you, and you were no longer part of the "unemployed" statistic. Unemployment went down!

I've also seen the government there change their criteria for unemployment (for example dropping you after 9 months instead of 12), to make it seem like unemployment went down.

(I'm a big believer in statistics-driven policies, but statistics, like anything involving humans, can be corrupted)

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by IncRnd on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:52PM (#30704604)
That's very astute of you. The GP was talking about a rate called U-3, but the U-6 rate is far more descriptive. U-3 is what is generally used as the quoted rate, because it severely minimizes actual unemployment, allowing the Federal Government to use false statistics. [1]

[1] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by alexilliamson on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @06:01PM (#30704691)
I'm glad someone else got on this soap box today. Folks will bend over backwards to justify the U-3 rate when it's not that meaningful at all.
Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by xxpor on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @06:27PM (#30704932)
It's extremely meaningful. It measures those who are unemployed. U-6 counts underemployment and people not actively searching due to an "economic reason".

Even regardless, the current U-6 rate is very close to the record low: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/U6RATE

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by bskap on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @06:06PM (#30704731)
The US uses a large-scale survey for unemployment rather than tying it to the unemployment process. The official definition most people quote is based on responses to the survey of "have not worked recently, have looked for work recently" but there are also broader measures of unemployment that count people who want to work even if they haven't looked, as well as people working part time who want to work full time.

Using even the broadest measure of unemployment[1], numbers are back down where they were before Covid. The labor force participation rate is still down though[2] which means that about 2% of US adults aren't looking to go back to work at all- many of them are likely now retired, students, or stay-at-home parents.

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/U6RATE [2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by IncRnd on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:44PM (#30704515)
That's U-3. U-6 is at 7.2%. In general the claim that many people are not returning to work after COVID lockdowns is true. The reasons are up for debate, but that's not the point. The U-3 rate is an artificial rate to claim as the truth. That's moving the goal posts in order to get the win.

Plus there are a record number of unfilled job openings.

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by bskap on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @06:01PM (#30704690)
U-6's 7.2% is compared to 7.0% in February 2020 and 8.1% in February 2007. So even that is similar to pre-Covid levels and better the the peak before the last recession.
Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by IncRnd on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @06:07PM (#30704746)
How does that apply to full employment?
Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by bskap on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @06:17PM (#30704841)
The 5% = full employment threshold has always been calculated based on U3. That's what they measured to come up with that estimate. If you want to talk about how U6 is better, then you need to compare it to previous U6 measurements, not previous U3 measurements.

If, as you were implying, U3 was hiding extra unemployment right now but U6 was more accurate, then it wouldn't be so closely tracking U3.

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:52PM (#30704606)
Your argument is a non sequitur to me:

> Plus there are a record number of unfilled job openings.

Yes, which would basically imply that it's incredibly easy for anyone who wants a job to get one.

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by IncRnd on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @06:02PM (#30704702)
> Your argument is a non sequitur to me:

For something to be a non sequitur, it must be a non sequitur to everyone, not just to one. This is not a non sequitur for two reasons.

  1) The sentence you quoted was not intended to be a
     consequence of the earlier statement.  Unemployment rate
     and number of job openings are connected, but not as you
     believe.  Correlation is not causation.  You are drawing
     inferences without cause.
  2) Full employment depends upon the number of job openings as
     well as the unemployment rate, which you ignored from
     my comment.
> Yes, which would basically imply that it's incredibly easy for anyone who wants a job to get one.

No. That is your inference but is clearly not implied.

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by OGWhales on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:34PM (#30704404)
MMTers argue that government spending at full employment will cause inflation, not that there must be full employment for there to be inflation.
Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by dlp211 on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:30PM (#30704351)
Inflation has many inputs and looking at inflation strictly through a monetary lens will provide a distorted picture as to why there is inflation.

Additionally, MMT states that it needs to use taxes to manage inflation, which the US federal gov't is clearly not doing, which undermines the testability of the theory.

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by standeven on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:33PM (#30704385)
How do you define full employment? The unemployment rate in the USA is currently 3.8%.
Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by chimeracoder on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @09:06PM (#30706280)
> How do you define full employment? The unemployment rate in the USA is currently 3.8%.

3.8% is near historic lows.

More importantly: "full employment" doesn't mean unemployment is literally 0% - in fact, an unemployment rate of 0% would be actively bad, because it indicates that people are unable to leave their jobs (even temporarily) to seek better opportunities or life changes - usually because inflation is too high.

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by ummonk on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:54PM (#30704624)
There's no strict definition, but an unemployment rate <4% almost certainly corresponds to full employment, as frictional unemployment can be expected to be ~4%.
Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by IncRnd on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @06:37PM (#30705028)
BLS defines full employment as an economy in which the unemployment rate equals the nonaccelerating inflation rate of unemployment (NAIRU), no cyclical unemployment exists, and GDP is at its potential. [1]

[1] https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2017/article/full-employment-an...

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by ericmay on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:31PM (#30704363)
Aren't there record job openings?

I know "full employment" is a loaded term here, but at least in a general sense all who want a job could at least find something right?

One thing I'd be interested in seeing a discussion on as it relates to this topic is what happens when there is a legitimate labor shortage.

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by Mountain_Skies on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:43PM (#30704508)
Not all job openings exist with the intention of ever being filled.
Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by zemptime on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:30PM (#30704354)
MMT has seemed to me to be an academic fig leaf over the indirect taxation which occurs when more money is printed. MMT is fundamentally wrong, and everyone smart knows it is, but you as an individual can't make any sort of "respected" career as an economist unless you say the right things or are stupid enough to believe them.
Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by germinalphrase on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:49PM (#30704579)
Wouldn’t it also suggest that the prescribed inflation antidote - raising taxes - would be impractical due to political opposition. Seems like a double win: stand strong against raising taxes (which is the heterodox position) while showing MMT “doesn’t work”.
Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by ece on Thursday March 17, 2022 @01:27AM (#30707971)
A few years ago, Janet Yellen (testifying in congress I believe) called for more research into "hot" economies because presumably there was a lack of such research. We're now in a period of growth and basically full employment after a pandemic where the fed and fiscal policy decided to keep things "hot." There have also been supply and energy shocks that are contributing to inflation.

The remaining part of the MMT puzzle as I see it is: raise corporate taxes, and see if it helps bring inflation under control. If raising rates slowly doesn't quite do it, this should be the next go to for policy makers.

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by bitshiftfaced on Thursday March 17, 2022 @10:07AM (#30711298)
> and that the primary risk once the economy reaches full employment is inflation, which can be addressed by gathering taxes to reduce the spending capacity of the private sector.

I don't understand this. Increasing taxes reduces the spending power of the individuals who pay the taxes. But that taxed money doesn't evaporate. The government spends it or redistributes it. It ultimately makes its way back into the private sector.

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by brimble on Thursday March 17, 2022 @11:19AM (#30712086)
The key concept is that taxation is unrelated to the government's ability to spend (with fiat currency). They can tax $1T and spend $1T. Or they can tax $0 and spend $1T. Government is not constrained from spending whatever amount it likes—except in the spending's effects on money supply, inflation, et c.

From that POV, destroying money (or, if you prefer, reducing the rate of increase in the money supply) is exactly what taxation does.

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by mudlus on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:56PM (#30704639)
All value is explanatory, that is, even if it has "intrinsic value" like carbohydrates in ATP in a cell, it is still knowledge instantiated for a resilient purpose (eg to power a cell to replicate its knowledge).

As explanations change, value changes, so anything can be a currency at the level of the individual--in this way, at least for conscious minds, a public monopoly on money is, while possible, morally wrong. It's a form of Marxism.

There's already been a solution the problem of state monopoly on symbolic abstractions for value (money), that started with Bitcoin and has been growing a new global economy since 2009.

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by xxpor on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @06:33PM (#30704987)
The state has a monopoly on money because they collect taxes. Try paying your taxes in BTC and tell me how that goes.
Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by landemva on Thursday March 17, 2022 @03:13AM (#30708450)
What do you mean by, 'Try paying your taxes in BTC ...' ?

In USA, sales taxes are paid to government by the vendor. As just a typical person in USA who does not work for federal government nor reside in D.C., sales taxes and property taxes are all that I (implicitly) pay. The vendor and I determine amount and type of my payment.

Your comment had a threatening tone implying something bad may happen. What is the lurking threat?

Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by xxpor on Thursday March 17, 2022 @01:39PM (#30713817)
You don't pay federal income taxes?
Re:US Federal Reserve raises interest rates for first time s... by landemva on Thursday March 17, 2022 @02:53PM (#30714610)
Many people don't qualify to pay 'income' tax, but most people just think they have to do it. And employers withhold it from wage slave paychecks, which does make it challenging to opt out.

Definitely possible to not have what is known as wage income. Many do it. The super rich structure their affairs to avoid being in that system of voluntary contributions.