> According to the research results, public health and economy would care.

Well, good thing we've never let that stand in the way of a decision. /s

Personally I'd prefer more light later in the day so that I don't feel like the day is over as soon as I get off work but that's just me.

That's what the research supports. People go out more and spend money more when the sun is up after the working day. Kids play more. People exercise more.

Ahh, I think I read the comment I was replying to backwards (which is par for the course when it comes to TZ/DST-type things with me, "is it an hour earlier? or later").

No, you read it correctly the first time around. E.g. from the first link in the dump above:

> we find that an extra hour of natural light in the evening reduces sleep duration by an average of 19 minutes and increases the likelihood of reporting insufficient sleep.

The health benefits of people staying out longer and spending more money (?) are disputed I believe. The reduced sleep of day starting before sun-up are pretty universally recognized as bad for public health (particularly among teenagers).

Also note that if staying out longer was a goal to strive for, there are number of alternatives to encourage that. Including shorter worker ours, more public spaces, public events, etc. Conversely getting people to sleep longer is much harder with the clock set 1+ hour after the sun clock.

> Also note that if staying out longer was a goal to strive for, there are number of alternatives to encourage that. Including shorter worker ours, more public spaces, public events, etc. Conversely getting people to sleep longer is much harder with the clock set 1+ hour after the sun clock.

This are fantastic points I don't see in discussions around the topic. Goes to show that the solution space for a problem is often constrained by our perceptions of both the problem and what our expectations of a reasonable solution are.

My kid doesn't go to sleep earlier just because the sun sets at 5PM. In fact, he has gotten used to spending most of his evenings in darkness, not being able to go to the park after school to let off some energy makes him go to bed later rather than earlier.

Then might I suggest you ask your local government to invest in better lighting at you local park so your kid can still play at it even when it stars getting dark. Or if natural lighting is a must, you can ask your school district to have shorter school hours during the 2 weeks around winter solstice. If that is impossible you can ask for more outdoors school activities during mid-winter.

But what I gathered is that what matters most for healthy sleep is not going to bed early, but rather to sleep longer in the morning and wake up with the sun. So if we move to permanent DST this behavior of staying up late might become more of a problem because of the early rising.

> But what I gathered is that what matters most for healthy sleep is not going to bed early, but rather to sleep longer in the morning and wake up with the sun. So if we move to permanent DST this behavior of staying up late might become more of a problem because of the early rising.

Permanent DST is the one where the sun rises later, which would mean easier to get more sleep rather than being woken up because the sun is rising too early.

I don’t think that is what people doing research on the subject are observing.

I don't think you understand where we live at all. Since nights get cold quickly here, even in the summer, people are not out at night playing as much as they are in more temperate climates.

It's an interesting situation. Research shows one thing, but a lot of people seem to have a gut feeling that says the opposite thing.

This is literally what permanent DST accomplishes.

I know, I mistakenly thought the comment I was referring to was saying that the research says that "Standard Time" is better for us than DST.

Because we are still farmers who need to wake up at 6AM in the morning?

Farmers don't care about the clock, neither do the cows. Work traditionally started when the sun came up, and cows got fed then too... since cows still can't read the clock, they still get up and want food at sunrise, DST or not.

Haha! I worked on a dairy farm in my youth. Cows also don't care about what days off your government says you should have. Kids have a recital in the afternoon? Better have someone there to milk the cows. Woke up with a tooth ache? better have someone there to milk the cows.

Cows also don't care about property lines :)

Almost all 'blue collar' work starts at 7:00 AM. It isn't about farmers. I was a farmer once, my day started at 4:30 AM.

But I worked blue collar after that, my job 7:30 to 5:00, or 7:30 to 8:00 on long days.

Even in my current white collar job, that habit has stuck, and I have been working 7:30 AM to 4:30 AM for the last thirty five years, mostly to avoid the bulk of the commute.

So yes, there are millions of jobs across this country where people arrive at work, and punch in on a clock, at 7:00 AM every morning.

I worked a blue color job where I was at work at 5:30 AM, sometimes 4:30 AM. The fact that it was never light out when I went to work, even when standard time was in effect, didn't bother me much.

> Because we are still farmers who need to wake up at 6AM in the morning?

I start work at an office starting around 8:30-9:00 and I wake up at 6AM. Not quite sure what that time has to do with farmers.

Sounds like you work in an all indoor environment where the sun matters not to your livelihood, unlike farmers.

> Sounds like you work in an all indoor environment where the sun matters not to your livelihood, unlike farmers.

My (late) grandparent were farmers: they only cared about the time on Sundays to make sure they weren't late for Church services. Otherwise the the cows needed milking when they needed milking (which I helped with when I visited them).

Do you think farmers will orient their working hours around a clock or the sun?

Not in the modern era, no:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30691457

Public health also cares about not switching up schedules.

They care even more about Year-round Standard Time:

> We therefore strongly support removing DST changes or removing permanent DST and having governing organizations choose permanent Standard Time for the health and safety of their citizens.

* https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541...