They're fine if they go to bed early. That's the actual discipline part, going to bed early and getting up early is harder than going to bed late and getting up late. But overindulgent parents let kids stay up so they never learned good habits and now they're entering the workforce and whining about it.

> They're fine if they go to bed early.

They're not. This ignores diverging chronotypes. I suggest you read up on the science around sleep before commenting on whether "they're fine".

https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/chronotypes-ev...

https://www.sleepfoundation.org/how-sleep-works/chronotypes

https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501...

Obviously we can't control this, so I see no evidence that "chronotypes" are formed by nature and not by nurture. Lots of other stuff we do is influenced by our social structure and we could probably fix most teenagers and young adults by changing that.

As stated above, I'm a night owl myself and tend to have a pretty off kilter sleeping schedule. A bunch of things have contributed to that - I've got ADD and have been on stimulants for most of my life, I worked as a game dev for a few years which involved months of overtime where we'd often work 12hrs three times a week that played absolute hell with my sleeping schedule and still plagues me to this day - lastly, I'm light sensitive, I can't comfortably see and operate in full daylight.

I can't say for certain where my night-owlish self comes from, but it predates taking stimulants and working at a game dev company - so maybe it's a side effect of light sensitivity or maybe it's a neurological thing... or maybe it's just a natural clock thing.

There is no value in messing up your sleep pattern.

It’s self-discipline theatre.

We used to need early rising when we milked cows and hunted at dawn.

But now we primarily need sharp minds and being awake at dawn has no special benefit.

I say this as an early riser.

> Obviously we can't control this, so I see no evidence that "chronotypes" are formed by nature and not by nurture.

Here’s why: The Hadza are hunter-gatherers whose lifestyle is very similar to that of early humans.

The observations were found in people with lifestyles that represent that of early humans. What part of nurture would affect those people? They have no concept of a clock...