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Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by jaredandrews on Friday March 11, 2022 @04:07PM (#30646034)
I remember in the early 2000s there was a similar reaction to Harry Potter. My family attended a rather extreme church at the time. One day the pastor started the sermon with: "We need to talk about Harry Potter". I thought "Ohhh nooooo, here we go".

He proceeded to berate the congregation, reminding every one that Harry Potter is a fictional children's book. Witches aren't real. Wizards aren't real. You know who is real? Satan and he's coming for ya, but not thru this fairytale book. Always thought that was pretty funny.

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by ilamont on Friday March 11, 2022 @04:49PM (#30646445)
"Harry Potter Books Spark Rise In Satanism Among Children"

LOCK HAVEN, PA—Ashley Daniels is as close as you can get to your typical 9-year-old American girl. A third-grader at Lock Haven Elementary School, she loves rollerblading, her pet hamsters Benny and Oreo, Britney Spears, and, of course, Harry Potter. Having breezed through the most recent Potter opus in just four days, Ashley is among the millions of children who have made Harry Potter And The Goblet Of Fire the fastest-selling book in publishing history.

And, like many of her school friends, Ashley was captivated enough by the strange occult doings at the Hogwarts School Of Witchcraft And Wizardry to pursue the Left-Hand Path, determined to become as adept at the black arts as Harry and his pals.

"I used to believe in what they taught us at Sunday School," said Ashley, conjuring up an ancient spell to summon Cerebus, the three-headed hound of hell. "But the Harry Potter books showed me that magic is real, something I can learn and use right now, and that the Bible is nothing but boring lies."

https://www.theonion.com/harry-potter-books-spark-rise-in-sa...

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by bsagdiyev on Friday March 11, 2022 @11:18PM (#30648960)
Hah, an Onion article and it's based around where my dad grew up/grandparents still live and where I spent many summers. Never thought I'd see Lock Haven (or the real "Jersey Shore", right up the street) here.
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by jamiek88 on Friday March 11, 2022 @11:08PM (#30648923)
man my fire was up, I'd already started pounding on my keyboard in a frothing rage and then I saw the url.

You got me good.

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by unfocussed_mike on Friday March 11, 2022 @04:24PM (#30646207)
A family friend told me about ten years ago that she thought Harry Potter had occult elements. I pointed out to her that JK Rowling is a Scottish Episcopalian and compared it with the Narnia story cycle, which is also the work of a Christian. Didn't go down that well.

(There is a chain of toy stores in the UK that will not stock anything Harry Potter-related because of this kind of belief.)

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by digisign on Saturday March 12, 2022 @03:05PM (#30654428)
The definition of occult nails HP to me, the authors leanings notwithstanding:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/occult

- of or relating to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.

- beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious.

- secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated.

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by unfocussed_mike on Saturday March 12, 2022 @04:27PM (#30655039)
It fits the fictional subjects the fictional characters are taught, sure.

But that doesn't make Harry Potter occult literature!

If it did, so are Superman comics. And the X-Files. And James Bond.

Fictional stories about occult figures are at least two steps removed from occult literature. One, they are written about other people studying such material, two they are explicitly fictional. (Three, perhaps, so are the people doing the studying.)

There is actual, primary source occult material out there; confusing this with Harry Potter is precisely what the looney fringes want.

When I say that my family friend thought Harry Potter had occult elements, I do not mean that she thought the content of the stories was about the occult. Of course they are.

I mean that she believed the stories themselves to be as dangerous as primary source occult material: that fiction about the occult is at some level interchangeable with the occult; that it's a primer on the occult.

Which is why the Lewis comparison wasn't well-received. Because it punctures the notion that making up stories about witches invites Satan in.

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by digisign on Saturday March 12, 2022 @09:09PM (#30657201)
I tend to agree, although this is moving the goalposts from the original statement.
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by unfocussed_mike on Sunday March 13, 2022 @08:46AM (#30660766)
It's really not. I just wasn't as clear as I could have been.
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by 1123581321 on Sunday March 13, 2022 @07:10PM (#30666698)
We couldn’t have known you meant to exclude fiction from “occult elements.”

Also, I bet the conversation actually did go well. :)

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by krapp on Friday March 11, 2022 @09:58PM (#30648590)
Christianity would be so much cooler if they left in more of the esoteric apocryphal texts with wizard battles, mysticism and demon summoning, and cut out Paul's misogynist bullshit.
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by mrjangles on Saturday March 12, 2022 @12:57AM (#30649300)
The revelations book fits this description. And we already have a religion that bases itself around it: the Jehovah Witnesses. While your idea sounds cool in theory, in practice the results is a crazy cult which no one in their right mind would want anything to do with.
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by unfocussed_mike on Saturday March 12, 2022 @04:58PM (#30655319)
QAnon is rather like this, as other commenters are pointing out; people who believed in or amplified the Satanic Panic are present in the QAnon "faith" too.

It compares even more closely to Millerism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millerism

... in that a series of prophecies has been made and not come true, and like the Millerites, Q believers have experienced a great disappointment and branched off into other further-splintering schools of belief around Covid vaccinations and The Great Reset.

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by dylan604 on Friday March 11, 2022 @04:32PM (#30646293)
While attending church camp the summer after Prety Hate Machine released, the preacher started quoting some of the lyrics. My friend and I got in trouble for singing along. My fondest memories of church was when the hypocrisy just popped out and smacked you in the face.
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by nobleach on Friday March 11, 2022 @04:43PM (#30646395)
I remember hearing "While the devil wants to f** me in the back of his car" and thinking, "wow, I'm sure as a 12 year old, I'm supposed to find this thrilling... such aggression , such anger... this guy seems really mad at things he doesn't even believe in." I just wasn't interested in it. Not saying Trent isn't a genius. Or that I don't appreciate all the cool experimentation he was doing back then (sending instruments and vocals through an ARP 2600!!). That lyric just felt like a cop-out to me.

Church camp did get me listening to Metallica though! Fade To Black was such an amazing song... and no amount of "this song was written by the devil to make kids kill themselves" could ever change that.

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by jmcgough on Friday March 11, 2022 @05:28PM (#30646827)
I appreciate PHM for what it was - important from a technical perspective and a precursor for what was to come. But Trent was in his early 20s so not his most emotionally complex work ;)
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by dylan604 on Friday March 11, 2022 @05:41PM (#30646968)
I always joked that I wanted to meet the girl that did him so wrong that led to that album.
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by nobleach on Friday March 11, 2022 @05:45PM (#30647009)
His reaction to Johnny Cash's version of Hurt made me have a great deal of more respect.
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by partomniscient on Saturday March 12, 2022 @08:29AM (#30651189)
After that he got Broken, then he got Fixed. But well before that he was a keyboard salesman.

I have seen him get angry at a keyboard live. Trent 1, Keyboard 0.

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by hiptobecubic on Friday March 11, 2022 @11:02PM (#30648899)
Y'all are crazy. PHM is a banging album.
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by kuang_eleven on Friday March 11, 2022 @07:35PM (#30647836)
I was always amused at the amount of flak Harry Potter got when His Dark Materials came out about the same time period. The young adult book series that very explicitly is about killing God, how evil the church is and even has gay angels as side characters!
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by plasticchris on Saturday March 12, 2022 @09:41AM (#30651681)
I think few people read past the first book. I’ve almost stepped in it talking to religious people that say they love this series and I thought it was some kind of coded message. Like, me too, what was your favorite part?
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by 1123581321 on Sunday March 13, 2022 @07:13PM (#30666726)
Plenty was written about the message in the third book, in particular. The Pullman books just haven’t had as much cultural staying power so the debate about them isn’t being reinforced.
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by atlantas on Friday March 11, 2022 @04:44PM (#30646399)
What is it about Harry Potter and moral panics?

Then "We need to talk about Harry Potter. The story is evil and will corrupt your kids!"

Today "We need to talk about Harry Potter. The author is evil and will corrupt your kids!"

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by QuercusMax on Friday March 11, 2022 @04:53PM (#30646480)
Bigots. Those freaking about satanism and Harry Potter were bigots.

JK Rowling is an anti-trans bigot. She is the one freaking out about how trans women are going to rape children or something like that.

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by kleiba on Friday March 11, 2022 @05:25PM (#30646798)
trans women are going to rape children

Did she really state that? If so, please provide a citation.

If not, claiming this would be a grave diffamation that cannot be taken lightly, whether or not one dislikes her position on LGBTIQA+.

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by edrx on Friday March 11, 2022 @06:21PM (#30647359)
It was "trans women are going to rape children _or something like that_". Most reactions that I saw about J.K. Rowling's 3600-word essay point out that she equates transness with intent to rape, so I think that the original sentence with the "or something like that" is ok. Here are two links: https://wessexsolidarity.wordpress.com/2020/06/14/j-k-rowlin... https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2021/12/j-k-rowling-tweet-paints...
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by iamdamian on Friday March 11, 2022 @06:49PM (#30647560)
I don't see that in the articles you linked. Can you quote the evidence that she equates trans-ness with rape?

I _do_ see something about her questioning whether gender self-identification should affect whether someone is allowed to be tried for rape (since, if I understand correctly from the article you linked, the UK seems to not allow women to be tried for rape). It's difficult to follow to the original quote because some of the linked articles and original sources are paywalled.

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by QuercusMax on Friday March 11, 2022 @06:06PM (#30647229)
She's definitely accused transwomen of being rapists, and wrote a book about a man who wears a dress to kill women.

Btw, the word is "defamation".

Here's an article with some documentation: https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2021/12/j-k-rowling-tweet-paints...

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by labster on Friday March 11, 2022 @07:30PM (#30647806)
Article includes no JKR quotes, but lots of quotes from enraged twitterati. She uses an Orwell quote which doesn’t refer to rape at all, just to doublethink. Please provide evidence, not smear campaigns.
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by treesprite82 on Saturday March 12, 2022 @11:32AM (#30652497)
> Article includes no JKR quotes

> She uses an Orwell quote which doesn’t refer to rape at all

Third paragraph of the article has a JKR quote directly referencing rape.

Not sure if it backs up the original "freaking out about..." claim, but maybe "by placing undue emphasis, perpetuates the narrative that...".

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by kleiba on Sunday March 13, 2022 @09:53AM (#30661204)
Not sure if it backs up the original "freaking out about..." claim [...]

Not at all. This quote is from a JKR tweet that she made referring to a Times article on the praxis of UK police recording rape crimes as being committed by a women when the perpetrator identifies as female (even if they have male genitalia).

So, neither did JKR (in that quote) equate trans people with rapist nor did she bring up the whole topic. Rather, she reacted to a newspaper article on the topic, and certainly not in a way that could by any stretch of the imagination be characterized as "freaking out".

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by kleiba on Saturday March 12, 2022 @07:13AM (#30650844)
Btw, the word is "defamation".

Thanks!

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by atlantas on Friday March 11, 2022 @07:36PM (#30647846)
You are pushing the moral panic in question, and it will age even more poorly than the previous panic since it's targeting and smearing a woman instead of a story.
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by QuercusMax on Friday March 11, 2022 @07:56PM (#30647963)
JK Rowling is the one targeting transpeople. They didn't come for her, she came after them.
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by Viliam1234 on Sunday March 13, 2022 @09:16AM (#30660969)
Similarly, now we understand that the actual problem with games isn't satanism but sexism.
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by klyrs on Friday March 11, 2022 @05:37PM (#30646916)
My great grandmother wasn't a terribly religious person, but towards the end of days, she decided it would be prudent to go to church. She picked one of the fire and brimstone sort, and Harry Potter was the subject of their intense ire. She wouldn't talk about it, even when prompted. Our sense was that she was seeking some sort of closure in going to church; it didn't matter much what they had to say.
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by SynAck6 on Friday March 11, 2022 @04:32PM (#30646295)
I grew up in a Jehovah's witness household and my dad burned my harry potter books after a particularly zealous talk about harry potter and the association books had with the occult and satan. Fun times
Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by pyuser583 on Friday March 11, 2022 @11:08PM (#30648924)
I think some folks confused Dungeons and Dragons with Lovecraftian role playing games that were popular at the same time.

Those were demonic.

That’s not a value statement or judgement. They were literally based around demons taking over the world and killing all goodness. And there were was nothing anyone could do to stop it.

D&D was ultimately based on Lord of the Rings, so there were demons in it. But it wasn’t demonic in the Cthulhu sense.

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by dragonwriter on Friday March 11, 2022 @11:16PM (#30648951)
> I think some folks confused Dungeons and Dragons with Lovecraftian role playing games that were popular at the same time.

No, the latter were never anywhere close to as popular; the deliberate propaganda was targeted at D&D because it was fringe enough that people wouldn't know it was lies and popular enough that it would have impact.

> Those were demonic.

No, they weren't (the in-game fiction may have been, but that was often true of D&D which was like an order of magnitude more popular than anything else in the TTRPG market at the time of the Satanic Panic.)

In fact, using the Lovecraft mythos in D&D, for which it was written up, was more popular than the purpose-built games.

> D&D was ultimately based on Lord of the Rings, so there were demons in it. But it wasn’t demonic in the Cthulhu sense.

D&D was pretty distant from LotR, and had the Cthulhu mythos literally started up in one of the major supplements.

Re:The 1980s Media Panic over Dungeons and Dragons (2016) by Talanes on Saturday March 12, 2022 @06:15PM (#30655963)
> They were literally based around demons taking over the world and killing all goodness. And there were was nothing anyone could do to stop it.

So are the Left Behind books, and those are literally Christian Fiction.