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Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by sdeframond on Monday March 07, 2022 @07:57AM (#30587187)
Could we understand tips as a lesser form of corruption?

I mean, the root cause is similar: low wages incentives the official/waiter to ask for more money directly to a citizen/client, or else.

There's no tips where I'm from, so tips have always been strange and unecessary to me.

Genuinely wondering. I have no fixed opinion.

Edit to add: also a root cause is that both practices are generally accepted in some areas.

Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by alistairSH on Monday March 07, 2022 @10:02AM (#30588564)
It's not corruption, unless you consider the whole wage system for restaurant staff in the US to be corrupt. And as tips are paid at the end of service, the waiter doesn't know if you'll tip well or not while serving you.

Today, tips are paid because wait staff are paid below minimum wage. This is legal - as tipping is baked into their compensation. It's stupid and anachronistic, but it's not the fault of the staff (though GOOD waiters will often express support for the system because they fear going to fixed wage w/ zero tipping will reduce their income).

I'd much prefer a living wage with optional tips for extraordinary service (which seems to be the norm in much of western Europe). Here in the US, 20% gratuity is pretty much expected. And FWIW, I'll pay 25-30% for good service, and to get less than 20%, a waiter would have to be downright awful.

Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by dagw on Monday March 07, 2022 @10:19AM (#30588779)
And as tips are paid at the end of service, the waiter doesn't know if you'll tip well or not while serving you.

At bars on the other hand the 'corruption' is much clearer. Tip badly for a round of drinks and you'll get slow/bad service for the rest of the evening. Tip well and you'll get priority service and perhaps even free booze. Especially with spirits and mixed drinks the corruption is obvious. Tip well and the bartender will pour you a double while charging you for a single, essentially 'stealing' from his employer and selling you the stolen goods at a discount under the table.

Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by hansvm on Monday March 07, 2022 @11:12AM (#30589514)
*At a discount relative to the insane markup spirits have at a typical bar.

It's not totally implausible that the owner is fully aware of the situation and accepts the status quo as a local maximum of profitability, why mess with standing social norms -- much how most restauraunteurs in the states wouldn't dream of paying a living wage for their wait staff because they know customers are going to tip sufficiently regardless of wages and that enough potential employees are fine with the situation (or prefer it) that they won't have staffing issues.

Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by jhauris on Monday March 07, 2022 @11:10AM (#30589491)
If you're going to pay by credit anyway, you can usually open a tab when you start, and then pay all at once at the end. That's how I've always done it, maybe it's regional?
Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by sdeframond on Monday March 07, 2022 @01:07PM (#30591195)
I've only seen that in local places. Otherwise its too easy to just leave from bigger venues without paying.
Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by xaqfox on Monday March 07, 2022 @01:41PM (#30591620)
The non-local places around the USA will take your card when starting a tab and many automatically add gratuity if you walk out without closing it (unsure if they place credit holds based on each order). At venues like concert arenas you may not see this, but I always suspected it was more due to the logistical challenge arising from people all wanting to leave at the same time.
Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by tnel77 on Monday March 07, 2022 @02:59PM (#30592616)
I took a cruise with a large group of friends once. We all had the drink package and prepaid gratuities, but we tipped extra for all of our drinks at the two bars that were our favorites. For only an extra $0.50/drink, I was getting 2-3x the alcohol and the wait staff would ignore other patrons to go straight to us. It made me feel kind of bad, but the service was outstanding and I knew the money was going to a good cause since many of the workers on these cruise ships send money back home to family.

TLDR: It’s remarkable what tipping and basic human decency can do to the quality of service you receive at a bar.

Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by dagw on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:46AM (#30597484)
It’s remarkable what tipping and basic human decency can do

Of course we now need an experiment to disentangle those two variables! One team tips very well, but treats the staff badly , one team treats the staff with plenty of human decency, but doesn't tip. Then we measure the quality of service received by the two groups. I wonder if I can apply for a research grant?

Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by KolenCh on Monday March 07, 2022 @10:00PM (#30595956)
You’re using the technical definition to claim tips as not corruption. And of course we all know that, otherwise it would have been illegal.

The point is, fundamentally the current way tips are collected in the US is like corruption. And like corruption, it should be made illegal.

For those who think people can’t survive without tips, first it is a problem that they are mistreated by their employer, second make it legally binding to mandatory add 20% or whatever to the meal and pass that to the directly (again legally binding).

If you think tips encourage good quality of service, other places without a culture of giving tips have our ways of providing good quality of service. You don’t need tip for that.

I once heard tips people gave, that when checking into hotel rooms, you should hold a 20 dollar notes as hint of tip and then ask them for upgrade. If they do, then you give them the tip. This is bribery, one of the many examples how tip culture can be used in a way indistinguishable to corruption.

Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by fossuser on Monday March 07, 2022 @10:07AM (#30588639)
Depends on the state, In California they can’t be be paid below minimum wage.
Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by alistairSH on Monday March 07, 2022 @10:18AM (#30588771)
Good point - most states require the pay to be the greater of 1) normal minimum wage OR 2) wait-specific min wage + tips/hour.

So, a waiter should always earn at least minimum wage, but can earn more if tips are good.

However, in practice, there are problems with this system. First, waiters who don't earn lots of tips usually get the bad shifts, then fired. Second, lots of room for wage theft.

Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by munk-a on Monday March 07, 2022 @12:52PM (#30591013)
And there is a whole bunch of wage theft - you can't forget that wage theft accounts for the most damaging crime by pure value in the US alone. Individual occurrences aren't generally for tons of money, but it happens everywhere.
Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by hpkuarg on Monday March 07, 2022 @10:22AM (#30588807)
In no state can a tipped employee be paid below minimum wage. If their base wage plus tips received over hours worked are below the minimum, then the employer is obligated to make up the difference. Of course, not everyone knows this, and I'm sure there are a lot of employers taking advantage of the situation.
Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by xxpor on Monday March 07, 2022 @12:22PM (#30590568)
The difference is in some states, there's not a different minimum base for tipped employees. So you're always making at least real min wage on your check automatically without having to worry about your boss actually doing the true up like they're supposed to.
Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by dfxm12 on Monday March 07, 2022 @01:23PM (#30591387)
Even if you know it, what are you going to do? Likely you can't afford a lawyer, and you definitely can't afford to leave your job to sue, since so many benefits in the US are tied to being employed. Employers know this...
Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by mandelbrotwurst on Monday March 07, 2022 @06:24PM (#30594682)
Get another job and then sue before leaving your current one?
Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by ALittleLight on Monday March 07, 2022 @06:04PM (#30594529)
Presumably they can be fired if they routinely make below minimum wage in tips though.
Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by mikecoles on Monday March 07, 2022 @04:15PM (#30593418)
With the Shopping-as-a-service going crazy during the 2020 height of Covid, the 'tips' were very much corrupted. You had to specify the tip amount when placing the order. How was that ever supposed to work? I was watching one very large order of mine where the shopper supposedly showed up to the store 7 minutes before it closed and started marking each of my items as out of stock. Trip was still completed so the tip was taken. 13 hours on hold to get that taken care of.

In the US, servers can make much more than minimum wage. Cash tips weren't reported for taxes. Reference: dated waitresses

Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by BeFlatXIII on Monday March 07, 2022 @09:37AM (#30588299)
Tipping in the US is a lasting legacy of prohibition. Before then, it was considered anti democratic bribery.
Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by shuntress on Monday March 07, 2022 @02:04PM (#30591932)
With a server, you exchange money for goods & services. Tipping makes the exchange a little weird and tax laws built around the practice can be complex. But it's still fundamentally a "normal" purchase. Not corruption.

With a government agent, you are not necessarily supposed to be paying them. Typical bribes are dependent upon an implicit threat of abuse of power rather than being a normal purchase of goods & services.

Tips are not a "lesser form of corruption". Unless you were somehow buying something with that tip that would otherwise be off-limits but in that case I think people would call it a bribe.

Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by mandelbrotwurst on Monday March 07, 2022 @06:31PM (#30594733)
I interpreted the assertion there as being that you're bribing them for better service, and an argument that this is "corrupt" because there is a belief that the service should be provided at a single price that is known to everyone, with equal quality to anyone who is willing to pay it, as opposed to favoring customers who pay extra.

That said, it's up for debate whether this is a valid expectation either in the context of public services provided by the government, engagements with private parties, or both.

Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by geodel on Monday March 07, 2022 @10:56AM (#30589274)
Indeed. However with language sophistry it can be justified as low wages in service industry. I of course do not visit restaurants and bars. It helps that good people on social media have advised that stingy/no-tippers must not go to restaurants or bars etc. If they still do so at-least appreciate if waiter spits into their food before serving.
Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by fknorangesite on Monday March 07, 2022 @01:03PM (#30591144)
> I of course do not visit restaurants and bars

Of course.

Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by dec0dedab0de on Monday March 07, 2022 @08:50AM (#30587701)
Tipping is almost the opposite of police corruption.

The idea behind tipping is that the wait staff will do a better job if part of their salary depends on impressing the customer. How well this actually works is a different conversation.

With police corruption they are purposely doing a bad job to get the bribe, and getting the bribe encourages them to keep doing a bad job.

I wish wait staff were paid better, or atleast got an automatic gratuity everywhere, then we wouldn't need tips.

Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by thaeli on Monday March 07, 2022 @10:24AM (#30588832)
It's not quite the same thing, but retaliation against people who don't tip well is very much a thing. Since tipping is at the end of the interaction, it doesn't really come up except for repeat customers.. but not tipping when you're a regular is a good way to get your food spat in.

I'm American, I grudgingly accept that tipping is how things are done and not tipping would be unfair to wait staff, but even before COVID I was mostly choosing restaurants that don't have table service just to avoid the 20% tip tax.

Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by geodel on Monday March 07, 2022 @11:01AM (#30589365)
Yes.

I am not sure why only car sales guys get bad rap when restaurants always looking to hide true cost to customers in advertisements.

Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by dec0dedab0de on Monday March 07, 2022 @01:42PM (#30591629)
I don't mind paying the tip, in fact I regularly over tip. I have never felt bad for tipping too much. What I don't like is having to spend any mental energy at all deciding how much to tip. With restaurants it's at least a known amount, with other professions who knows how much you're supposed to tip? I don't want to google how much to tip, just change me more, and pay them more.
Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by sdeframond on Monday March 07, 2022 @09:51AM (#30588448)
In theory this is true. In practice... I don't know. Lots of countries have fairly decent service quality without a strong tipping culture.

Edit: OK, there is one big difference: tipping is encouraged by the employer while bribery is not.

Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by dec0dedab0de on Monday March 07, 2022 @01:34PM (#30591541)
yeah, I think there was a study a while back that said most people tip the same regardless of the quality of service. Which is why I said "How well this actually works is a different conversation"
Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by alistairSH on Monday March 07, 2022 @10:06AM (#30588612)
Small sample, but my dining experience is typically equivalent between Europe and the US (when comparing like-to-like for restaurant quality). The biggest difference seems to be chain dining in the US, where you get the phony "how you doing?" every 5 minutes, which I find annoying. Maybe some people consider this good service? I'd prefer to be left alone until I'm obviously in need of something (glass almost empty, offer me a refill, no need to ask when the glass is 70% full, etc).
Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by barbazoo on Monday March 07, 2022 @01:27PM (#30591441)
"How were those first few bites?"
Re:Zero rupee note (2015) by runarberg on Monday March 07, 2022 @10:04AM (#30588596)
From a marxist perspective tipping is a scam in order to get cheaper labor. The employer underpays the worker and imposes an extra tax on the customer to fill the gap. This way the employer offsets their risk onto the worker when business is low while still keeping high profits when business is good.

If tipping is a form of a corruption, it is the boss—which neither gives nor receives the tip—who is the corrupt one.