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Re:The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf] by candiddevmike on Thursday March 03, 2022 @11:52AM (#30543441)
From what I've seen, across the industry, the folks who are burnt out are almost entirely individual contributors. You rarely see burnout in management, and it's typically in the form of folks who want to go back to being ICs/tried management and hated it.

I think companies really need to work on reducing or eliminating the amount of bullshit ICs have to deal with vs management (time tracking, status updates, on call, etc) or have management do the same amount of bullshit. Your boss may say they understand what you're going through, but they most likely do not have the same level of bullshit being asked of them on a daily basis. They can sit in meetings all day, miss deadlines, and no one knocks them on it like an IC where being a day late gets put on a PIP.

Re:The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf] by berg117 on Thursday March 03, 2022 @02:16PM (#30545401)
I've been a manager. Managers burn out all the time. They're just not allowed to show it. They get some degree of exemption from the petty humiliations (time tracking, on-call duty) and they do have human shields to throw in front of a bus or few... but as a middle manager, you're even closer to the truly horrible people up top, and your daily life is consumed by the issues faced by your unluckiest subordinate (sometimes he deserves it, sometimes he doesn't). You don't spend time with your underlings when the work is going well; you're constantly being pulled to deal with the crises and the sad cases.

Every company has an invisible line, like the officer/enlisted distinction in militaries, but always undocumented for obvious reasons. Above it are the real humans whom the company cares about; below it are the "resources". ICs are always below the line, except in R&D jobs that aren't available without a top-10 PhD... but most managers are also below the line.

Above the line, you basically write your own performance review because the bosses are your buddies. Below the line, it's miserable, and as you said you're one delay or mistake away from being sent to the Performance Improvement Camps. Almost all first-level managers in a company of significant size (25+ people) are below the line and spend just as much time on humiliating work justification (e.g., status reports) as the guys at the bottom.

Re:The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf] by candiddevmike on Thursday March 03, 2022 @02:57PM (#30545988)
Send me an email sometime (contact info in profile), I like the cut of your jib and would be interested in collaborating with you.
Re:The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf] by dougmccune on Thursday March 03, 2022 @11:57AM (#30543498)
This is probably just grass is greener stuff, but I've seen the opposite. Now, that said, this was post acquisition, but my anecdote is that in our case the ICs were shielded from all the office politics shenanigans and were able to just focus on delivering work. Meanwhile, those in management positions were repeatedly pulled into agenda-less meetings, were "voluntold" for tasks unrelated to their jobs, and were generally unhappy. Obviously it all depends on the culture within an organization. But in our case we worked really hard to shield the ICs from the BS, but those in management bore the brunt, and the burn out and resignations reflected that.
Re:The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf] by BaseballPhysics on Thursday March 03, 2022 @12:27PM (#30543873)
I absolutely agree with all of this. Management burnout is absolutely real and significant, and I'm honestly a little surprised someone would claim otherwise. The only way I can imagine coming to that conclusion is to have either 1) never been a manager, or 2) only worked at companies with ineffective/inactive management.
Re:The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf] by candiddevmike on Thursday March 03, 2022 @12:02PM (#30543555)
I think you have a different definition of bullshit than me. Sitting in a pointless meeting so I can daydream or work on something while half paying attention? That sounds like a vacation where I don't get bugged by drive bys. Voluntold work is the norm for ICs, my condolences that you have to deal with it. I think your list is a a best case scenario of the bullshit ICs might have to deal with, and it's a good example of my point: management doesn't have the same pain.
Re:The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf] by redisman on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:02PM (#30550142)
It’s not a vacation if you’re expected to deliver your tickets on time and it’s eating into your development time.
Re:The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf] by onion2k on Thursday March 03, 2022 @12:41PM (#30544086)
You rarely see burnout in management..

You rarely see burnout in anyone, because everyone does their best to hide it. Their performance drops until they quit. Most people just assume that's incompetence, especially with managers.

Re:The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf] by SkyPuncher on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:05PM (#30544423)
> You rarely see burnout in management

I see it all the time. The difference is management can often delegate the tasks they're most burnt out on to others.

Re:The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf] by ldjkfkdsjnv on Thursday March 03, 2022 @12:31PM (#30543939)
I think this is true. Management will shred through IC engineers, getting results but burning alot of them out in the process. Theres no accountability, and in some respects, its good business for them. They get the work done, the burnout really doesnt have that many repercussions.

The overarching issue is:

you need stability/healthy employees at the higher levels, at the lower levels it doesnt matter.

You cant have turn over in management, its a risk to the company. Turnover in engineers, even highly skilled ones, can be recovered from with some extra cost.

Re:The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf] by Taylor_OD on Thursday March 03, 2022 @12:47PM (#30544150)
It's actually terrible business because constantly having to hire, train, and ramp up new engineers takes up so much more time than retaining staff would. But no one wants to hear that when X needs to be released by Y and we can make that happen if our engs just work a little harder/longer.
Re:The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf] by BaseballPhysics on Thursday March 03, 2022 @04:47PM (#30547480)
> It's actually terrible business because constantly having to hire, train, and ramp up new engineers takes up so much more time than retaining staff would.

And who has to go through all that?

The managers.

Trust me, we don't want it any more than the ICs do. But senior/executive management doesn't feel the pain and therefore doesn't care.

Re:The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf] by sokoloff on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:19PM (#30544618)
I’m in management (former IC). I fight against as much pointless paperwork and bullshit as I can, but accounting principles and tax treatment of capitalizable work (and sometimes R&D credit programs and similar) force some amount of good-faith estimation of activities for which some amount of tracking is needed.

(If we paid you to do some operations task for an hour, that whole amount is a business expense this year. If we paid you to build software that will deliver value for the next three years, we have to take the expense of that hour across the next 36 months, not at all once. It’s a GAAP and a US tax code requirement. In no way do I care if you worked 33.25 or 40.75 hours in any given week other than to have enough data for finance to do accounting and file taxes correctly.)

Re:The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf] by kradeelav on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:31PM (#30544781)
YMMV, but it's personally entirely the opposite with what I've seen in the design industry, which feels somewhat similar to software in the sense we're both building things.

IC's that I've seen on my end to have a little more latitude to actually design things and have a small amount of independence there, wheras managers are stuck with the 'keep the project going' paperwork, people paperwork, shielding the team from the politics, etc.

(I've personally found a way to sidestep a lot of that, but so many of my previous managers have burned out to the above reasons.)