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Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by jefftk on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @01:47PM (#30531125)
This cites but doesn't link "The Mysterious Case of the Missing Russian Air Force", which is a much more thorough treatment: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentar...

They list three possible explanations:

* Too few precision-guided munitions (PGMs)

* Risk of friendly fire from surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) due to poor coordination

* Lack of experienced Russian pilots

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by standardUser on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @02:03PM (#30531350)
"Lack of experienced Russian pilot"

This one is so hard for me to imagine, given Russia's long history of aerospace pride and massive military budget. The article attributes it to limited flying time compared to US/UK pilots and unfamiliarity with their latest and most advanced jets. Truly hard to comprehend how a military like Russia's could be suffering from lack of training despite a multi-year lead-up to a massive invasion.

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by saiya-jin on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @02:26PM (#30531677)
Its easy - imagine massive, gargantuan corruption. On all levels, including the very top and going all the way to the lowest soldier. Heck, they were selling gas to Belarus civilians from their own machines while waiting just across the border during February. And then they ran out of it in Ukraine.

Can you imagine US or western Europe soldiers doing something similar en masse?

And its not just that - heavy drinking, fuck-it attitude, and suddenly called to invade the nation who was supposed to be their closest brothers?

They are sort of potemkin village kind of army. Few exceptional units (Spetsnaz), few cool technologies ie anti aircraft missiles, literally maybe 10 new Armata tanks (they found out they can't manufacture them en masse). So you see 40-50 years old tanks which Javelin can fry easily, and even clueless civilian can fire them after 30 minutes of training. You see soldiers abandoning vehicles since they have higher survability on foot. You see tank crew coming to Ukrainian police station to ask where is gas station (I call it clever way to surrender).

I think its actually very dangerous for Russia as a state right now. Showing this much weakness might motivate some neighbors. Especially China, they could run through the country all the way to Barents sea without breaking a sweat.

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by kspacewalk2 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @03:34PM (#30532706)
>I think its actually very dangerous for Russia as a state right now. Showing this much weakness might motivate some neighbors. Especially China, they could run through the country all the way to Barents sea without breaking a sweat.

To which I say: Russia has ~half of the world's nuclear arsenal. (The US has ~half, the rest of the nuclear states are mere footnotes by # of nukes, relying on the fact that no one really needs more than about a dozen).

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @03:45PM (#30532852)
> Russia has ~half of the world's nuclear arsenal

If this is the state of their conventional military, it raises questions about the state of their nuclear deterrent.

In any case, if China wanted Siberian resources, fomenting a breakaway region would be cleaner than invading.

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by kspacewalk2 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @03:46PM (#30532876)
>If this is the state of their conventional military, it raises questions about the state of their nuclear deterrent.

A scary fucking thought. i.e. some of them will stay in silos, but others will be partially airworthy.

>In any case, if China wanted Siberian resources, fomenting a breakaway region would be cleaner than invading.

This would result in a nuclear exchange.

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @03:52PM (#30532966)
> This would result in a nuclear exchange

Possibly. But the exchange would occur on Russian soil. China is more than capable of covertly supporting separatists. Hell, it might not even have to. Just prime the pump and then let the West take over.

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by desmosxxx on Friday March 04, 2022 @12:23AM (#30550987)
or they would just nuke chinese cities?
Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by sofixa on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @05:48PM (#30534464)
> Especially China, they could run through the country all the way to Barents sea without breaking a sweat.

The thing is though, is there any reason to believe the PLA would be in a much different shape? The last wars the Chinese fought in were decades ago, and the performance was pretty poor. So we don't have any real world idea of how that army would perform - it could suffer from poor morale, stupid tactics, lack of coordination, no logistics, or it could be superbly trained with great equipment.

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by oneoff786 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @03:50PM (#30532925)
Soldiers stealing fuel to sell is a decades old Russian soldier tradition
Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by skim_milk on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @03:14PM (#30532410)
In some branches of psychology, they use term "apoptosis" as a metaphor for widespread self-destruction [1], because such a collapse in social teamwork appears to almost perfectly mirror programmed cell death - as if social collapse of one society to allow the takeover of another more "fit" society is built in to our inherent social or genetic code. Historically speaking, showing such weakness would lead to mass genocide, leadership takeover, cultural changes, and other unpalatable war crimes. We don't need to be brutal cavemen anymore, but feels we're enabling Russia to torture itself indefinitely while not letting it completely collapse and rebuild a more fair society, because they have nuclear weapons and it would be the incorrect opinion to acknowledge and fix Russia's failures as a state, society, culture, military, and economic structure? Why can't we read the writing on the wall and fix the world's number 1 danger - the apoptosis of Russia?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayq2WTOIOAQ&t=2964s

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by redisman on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @03:34PM (#30532711)
Fix it how? Russia has been unstable for well over a century
Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by vintermann on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @02:44PM (#30531938)
> Its easy - imagine massive, gargantuan corruption.

Well, it's not as if the US military industrial complex has nothing of that?

I think the problem isn't corruption alone, but the combination of corruption and all the corrupt trying hard to put their own eggs elsewhere than Russia's basket. Working with a corrupt authoritarian leader can be profitable, but you really want to have a plan B for when SHtF.

US corrupt elites have the luxury problem that if their wealth and power isn't secure in the US, it probably isn't very secure anywhere else either. So they have to take just a little care not shit where they eat (too much), and maybe sponsor a few museums and stuff, robber baron style.

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by spacemark on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @03:41PM (#30532804)
I think you underestimate the extent of corruption in Russia. The US doesn't even come remotely close. You can look up corruption indexes, Russia is near most corrupt, US somewhere in the bottom quartile iirc. A quick example from my industry - roughly 1/3 of the ~USD $3 billion spent on the new Russian spaceport is unaccounted for (stolen). I assure you that's many orders of magnitude worse than the contracts in play at Cape Canaveral.

A good (extremely depressing) film to watch is "Leviathan" (2014).

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by vintermann on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @03:56PM (#30533022)
First, I was mostly thinking about historical corruption in the US, i.e. in the age of Robber Barons, which was really incredibly bad.

I agree there's probably less of the "money just unaccounted for" type of corruption in the US (though it does happen, especially in connection with wars and intelligence agencies), and certainly less petty bribes. But that may just be a symptom of more organized corruption, so that it isn't necessary to let to many lower instances have a cut. In short, there may be more legal ways to divert public trust to private gain, so that the petty sort is just pointlessly risky.

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by stjohnswarts on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @05:20PM (#30534049)
If you had lived in a country that is corrupt at all levels of industry, government, and business you would know that the US is practically pure as driven snow. In the US there is relatively plenty money to go around and even the poor typically live better than in a lot of countries "average standard of living) (barring the poorest 5% or so). I have lived in such a country for a few years and it. is. everywhere. -Everyone- wants a bribe or kickback.
Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by redisman on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @03:33PM (#30532687)
China won’t invade anyone. They haven’t had any battles in a long time. They can just take over with soft power since Russia is in a extremely weak position in a few months.
Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by nacs on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @05:13PM (#30533965)
> China won’t invade anyone

Except Hong Kong (and the "expansion" of the South China Sea).

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by redisman on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @07:51PM (#30535657)
A policing operation in one of their “own” cities against unarmed people and dumping a bunch of land into the sea/intimidating fishermen. Like I said they don’t have any combat ready troops. It’s basically all LARPing with a big budget. Which we should all be glad about.
Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by LAC-Tech on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @02:22PM (#30531612)
Russias military budget is only slightly higher than that of the UK (61.7 billion vs 59.2 billion), even though Russia has a bit more than twice the UK population.

France and Germany aren't far behind - 52.8 billion and 52.7 billion respectively. I believe Germany recently pledged to raise it's military spending to 100 billion (a lot of flashy headlines but couldn't find details), so soon it will far outspend Russia.

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by ginko on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @03:34PM (#30532708)
>I believe Germany recently pledged to raise it's military spending to 100 billion (a lot of flashy headlines but couldn't find details), so soon it will far outspend Russia.

Not to 100 billion, by 100 billion. Euros that is.

https://www-tagesschau-de.translate.goog/inland/innenpolitik...

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by oezi on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @04:11PM (#30533221)
They want to do a one time invest of 100bn and raise permanently to 2% of GDP.
Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by foepys on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @03:20PM (#30532515)
You cannot compare those numbers. Cost of living is very different in Germany and the UK compared to Russia. Personnel costs make up for most of the German budget and a Russian soldier earns only a fraction of a German soldier.
Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by Cthulhu_ on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @05:05PM (#30533857)
While that is a factor, I can also imagine that Russia has more cost due to the size of the country and the amount of hardware they have to maintain within that budget. The other countries are a lot more compact and focused, both in terms of landmass and the amount of hardware.
Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by Ajef on Thursday March 03, 2022 @03:48AM (#30538693)
Just looking at the land mass is probably misleading too. Most of the population is in the western part of Russia. As soon as you get to the mountains and Siberia there is simply not much there.
Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by DiggyJohnson on Friday March 04, 2022 @03:33PM (#30560145)
Sure, but I don’t think the person you’re replying to was forgetting this point.

Germany will have greater personnel cost, yes. In other areas, Russia will have a greater cost burden. For example, they don’t share defense resources with other nations (I.e. no. NATO equivalent).

The person you’re replying to is simply stating that Germany’s higher personnel cost does not nullify the effectiveness of relative strength of the German military versus the Russians.

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by hutzlibu on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @04:00PM (#30533067)
Russia has way lower wages on the other hand, meaning for domestic military spending, they get much further with that budget.
Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by jopsen on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @04:22PM (#30533366)
> they get much further with that budget.

Not when you pay for corruption :)

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by drran on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @02:10PM (#30531454)
Ukrainians shot about 30 Russian planes, so 30 experienced Russian pilots are gone. Even if they are catapulted, they cannot return to home easily, while Ukrainians can catapult, return to base, and then use a next available plane same day. It's like battle of Britain, when British pilots did the same trick against Nazi pilots.
Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by barelysapient on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @03:19PM (#30532501)
Ukrainians shot about 30 Russian planes, so 30 experienced Russian pilots are gone

This is exactly the metric. Unlike their other assets, planes are expensive to replace and pilots take a long time to train.

Russia needs to maintain their air assets in order to defend themselves in case they get challenged that way. And they have tons of warm bodies and old hardware to throw at the situation.

Another perspective is that Russian air assets are very vulnerable to MANPADS style air-defense systems. Ukraine has received a ton of these systems from the west and are able to engage targets up to about 3 miles out. They're also vulnerable to the S300 systems the Ukrainians inherited, although its not clear how many of those remain.

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by mardifoufs on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @02:23PM (#30531624)
I disagree, they have used their airforce extensively in Syria with precision guided bombs, and I'd be very surprised if that didn't help the pilots gain a lot of experience too. All those reasons might have explained a lower intensity air presence but not the outright absence of russian planes. I think it's mostly due to public perception because air strikes, no matter how precise, cause a lot of collateral damage, especially when used in cities.

Outside of cities, where alternatives to air strikes are viable, you can still see a lot of russian helicopter and artillery action.

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by aynyc on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @02:59PM (#30532173)
I think the area they lack experience is closed air support. Ground troops can't direct air support on enemy targets consistently and accurately. Not that many countries can do that effectively.
Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by ratg13 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @02:31PM (#30531755)
This is what the article argues. That it is possible that they used up most of their precision guided bombs in Syria and are mostly left with unguided munitions.
Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by mardifoufs on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @02:36PM (#30531829)
I'm not sure I'd agree because they haven't even used their ballistic or cruise missiles in any significant number either. And we know they have a lot, lot more of those even if we just count Soviet stock. To me that indicates that there is something more to it than just lacking the munition itself.
Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @03:44PM (#30532841)
> they haven't even used their ballistic or cruise missiles in any significant number either

Those need targeting. And the article mentions a lack of targeting pods. (UkrAF is largely functional because the initial volley missed many air fields, planes and radar systems.)

This increasingly looks like the Russian military procured shiny, expensive kit from cronies and then neglected to equip them.

Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by stjohnswarts on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @05:25PM (#30534103)
Syrian enemies did not have nearly the level of anti-aircraft (and more incoming from NATO countries) that Ukrainians have. I think they are just trying to keep irreplaceable fighters and bombers intact at the cost of ground forces. Russia know that in a war of attrition they can outlast Ukraine although it will cost them more than they thought now. I think they gambled based on what happened in Crimea and the "contested" regions of Ukraine.
Re:What happened to Russias Air Force? U.S. officials, exper... by Skunkleton on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @04:28PM (#30533435)
Could it be they are saving their airforce in case of western involvement?