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Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by tomschlick on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:30AM (#30500864)
Kind of insane that they started shutting down nuclear power plants earlier this year and are now more reliant on Russian gas because of it. How is that more green?

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/correction-ge...

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by thow-58d4e8b on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:43AM (#30501069)
I'm a supporter of nuclear, but this trope is overplayed. This winter Germany derived 5-10% of their electricity from natural gas - and even that is mostly due to cogeneration of heating, not for electricity needs. This cogeneration runs even if renewables provide a surplus. Calling Germany's electricity grid is "reliant on Russian gas" doesn't reflect reality
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by atlantas on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:49AM (#30501157)
Germany is Russia’s biggest gas customer. CNN has previously reported that Europe relies on Russia for around 35% of its natural gas, Germany over 50%. But with the threat of supply disruption following Russia’s attack on Ukraine, Germany along with other European countries has been looking to ramp up LNG imports.

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-...

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by VaxWithSex on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:52AM (#30501209)
We use it for HEATING. It cannot be replaced without "Sektorenkopplung" / switching to heatpumps first.
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by jseliger on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:12AM (#30501478)
This is a chicken-and-egg scenario: gas is available so few switch to heat pumps; few switch to heat pumps because gas is so readily available. The goal over time should be to move infrastructure away from gas and towards electric, and part of that is improving the power-generation system. Don't think only about today; think about where things should be moving tomorrow. "Thinking only about today" is part of the reason Germany is still dependent on Russian gas and oil.
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by VaxWithSex on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:19AM (#30501581)
WRONG. New residential homes are forbidden to be powered by gas. Old residential buildings have to follow Gebäudeenergiengesetz GEG, so they have to be modernized and isolated.

This entire concept is called Sektorenkopplung.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by merb on Monday February 28, 2022 @05:27PM (#30506034)
what you say is wrong. most new homes still are powered by gas. on the 1st january 2025 you need to also have like 45% powered by something else. germany is powered by gas and the alternatives for heating aren't that better (oil and pellets)
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by llampx on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @10:05AM (#30515018)
For someone who's wrong, you use a lot of caps. Fact is, most German homes are heated with gas and that is partially due to the politicians who have been close to the O&G industry, and partially due to "das haben wir immer so gemacht."

Due to low ownership rate of apartments, why would a landlord invest more money in heating with heatpumps or using more efficient insulation materials when he would bear the costs, but the tenant would get the benefits? So they only do it when forced to, or it is cheaper to use renewables.

Most of Germany, including politicians and home owners would quite gladly stay on fossil fuels aside from some blowhards who talk more than act.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by rr808 on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:51AM (#30501183)
These things can all be true at the same time:
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by jamil7 on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:45AM (#30501091)
Agree, I'm also tired of this. Some variation of this comment has appeared on every story here related to Germany's energy situation for the last few years.
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by goombacloud on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:47AM (#30501941)
People should get out of the HN/SV bubble where the world view is narrowed to technology, yielding a strong hype for self driving cars and nuclear ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by loufe on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:24AM (#30501615)
This is a mischaracterization, gas for heating isn't converted into electricity first in most cases, so total energy share is likely much more significant than 5-10%, however, if the gas disappears conversions to electric heating are going to sharply increase electricity demand, increasing coal/other fossil fuel consumption.
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by tablespoon on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:13AM (#30501494)
> I'm a supporter of nuclear, but this trope is overplayed. This winter Germany derived 5-10% of their electricity from natural gas - and even that is mostly due to cogeneration of heating, not for electricity needs. This cogeneration runs even if renewables provide a surplus. Calling Germany's electricity grid is "reliant on Russian gas" doesn't reflect reality

Do they have the grid capacity to support people using more electric space heaters and less gas for heat?

My home uses gas heat. I suppose if there was some kind gas shortage I have to turn the thermostat down to the minimum needed to keep the pipes from freezing, then use space heaters to bring in-use rooms up to a livable temp.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by greenicon on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:43AM (#30501891)
Space heaters are currently not feasible in Germany due to high electricity cost (which could be fixed by reducing taxes on electricity used just for heating). Nevertheless, the way forward are heat pumps anyway.
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by tablespoon on Monday February 28, 2022 @02:10PM (#30503670)
> Space heaters are currently not feasible in Germany due to high electricity cost (which could be fixed by reducing taxes on electricity used just for heating). Nevertheless, the way forward are heat pumps anyway.

But you've got to have both tactical and strategic responses, and the tactical solution may entail taking a hit from higher prices (though if that hit can be mitigated by other policy changes, like temporarily reducing taxes, that should be pursued as part of the tactical solution).

Tactical/short term: massively reducing gas use and trying to mitigate the short-term consequences by keeping nuclear online to power electric space heaters:

Strategic/long term: Switching all the buildings over to heat pumps powered by green energy.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by criley2 on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:50AM (#30501172)
Wind generation slumped 30% in 2021 due to the minor detail of the wind being unpredictable and unreliable and they had to make up for the deficit through hydrocarbon. Sure, saying "gas" which is more peaker power plants instead of "coal" which helps baseload generation may be wrong, but let's not ignore the reality that wind experienced rare seasonal lows and the only replacement was burning more coal than ever.

https://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/1737041/wind-genera...

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-coal-tops-wind-as-primary-elec...

The reality of relying on things like wind is that you have to either over-produce, or have a backup, and the backup is usually coal.

If Nuclear plants had not been unnecessarily shuttered, Germany would be more prepared to weather the weather, instead of increasing coal burning significantly.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by VaxWithSex on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:56AM (#30501272)
Wind generation is perfectly predictable. It is just volatile. But with enough storage (electrolyze it to hydrogen, then burn it in the gas plants), you can save the generated surplus for days without wind (and solar).

Additionally, new German homes are required, by law, to be build in a way that will not use 1. Gas for Heating 2. a lot of energy at all.

Additionally local energy storage and production in homes is encourgaged with 45% of funding coming from the German state.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by tialaramex on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:03AM (#30501370)
It's wrong to characterise gas as "peaker plants", the UK has an enormous fleet of CCGT that would once have seemed like an obvious fit for baseload, but today they ramp maybe from 10% to 90% performing the same function as the Open Cycle turbines in a "peaker plant".

Coal normally makes no sense to back wind, which is why Britain has been shutting coal plants while building ever more wind farms.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by pydry on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:39AM (#30500986)
Kind of insane that they get 100x more flak for having 25% coal and declining than Poland next door gets for having 75%.

Germany is doing better at decarbonization than most countries, in fact, but still attracts a disproportionate amount of flak for "not doing enough".

My cynical side says that this is precisely because they're slowly proving that nuclear isnt a necessary component of decarbonization. They are setting an example that threatens the industry's survival.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by asdfasgasdgasdg on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:42AM (#30501042)
Germany's per capita GDP is 3x that of Poland's and has been for quite a while. This is why commentators expect better performance from them than they do from Poland.
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by BitwiseFool on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:43AM (#30501060)
> " they're proving nuclear isn't a necessary component of decarbonization"

That remains to be seen. We would need to see what their progress is 5, 10, and then 15 years from now. I think the 2035 target would take a miracle to actually accomplish without Nuclear Power.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by Tade0 on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:17AM (#30501545)
Here's one such miracle:

https://www.luxresearchinc.com/blog/li-ion-manufacturing-in-...

> Lux expects the global annual Li-ion manufacturing capacity to more than triple by 2024.

That 2TWh or 45 minutes of storage for the whole world added annually.

With this manufacturing capacity it will be possible to have 2h of storage before 2030, which greatly increases the amount of renewable energy which could be utilized.

I'd say if not 100%, then 80% is realistic. Wind and solar combined make up around 30% already, so it's a question of doubling that number and adding appropriate storage.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by VaxWithSex on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:20AM (#30501586)
You don't store long term in lithium but in hydrogen.
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by VaxWithSex on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:57AM (#30501285)
The miracle is cheap renewables.
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by lampe3 on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:36AM (#30500949)
I live in Hamburg, Germany.

the reactor near Hamburg was either broken or not running for some other reasons.

Also after 40 years of nuclear plants we still have not a good answer to the waste it produces.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by ascar on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:49AM (#30501151)
> Also after 40 years of nuclear plants we still have not a good answer to the waste it produces.

That waste argument is repeated over and over again and just not relevant. Even if the waste problem is as massive as politics tries to claim (it isn't), that's not relevant for keeping the reactors running or even building new ones.

The absolute volume of waste produced is so low that keeping on relying on fission isn't changing the already existing waste problem in any meaningful way especially when considering breeding type reactors that can recycle existing "waste".

The argument is nothing but anti-fission propaganda and I wish it would stop being brought up as the first line of defense all the time.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by lampe3 on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:53AM (#30501219)
These reactors that recycle waste are not a thing right now in Germany.

These are pretty old reactors from the 80s or earlier.

Calling it propaganda tells me just one thing: its a waste of time discussing this more.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by _ph_ on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:04AM (#30501381)
Which breeding reactors are available to burn the existing waste? France had some decades ago, but shut them down. Germany never finished its breeding reactor. As far as I know, only Russia has operating ones. Normally I might comment on how Russian nuclear technology might not set the benchmark for safety, but in the current situation, any possibility of nuclear cooperation with Russia seems to be rather small.
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by Iridescent_ on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:46AM (#30501114)
We still don't have a good answer only if you refuse all the already existing answers. Geological storage has already been studied extensively and sites are already being constructed.
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by greenicon on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:49AM (#30501956)
This is not true for Germany. All existing places are temporary or have failed. Exactly now a search for a geological storage is going on: (German only, sorry!) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endlagersuche_in_Deutschland
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by VaxWithSex on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:58AM (#30501297)
after decades of studying the German site was discarded, because water was coming in. So where are these places in Germany, that you want to store the waste?
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by netcan on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:47AM (#30501130)
The trade off was fossil fuels though. There aren't good answers to the problems these pose either.

I always thought the security/proliferation arguments against nuclear power were the most convincing, but in germany's case I think the alternative has been worse on this front too.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by lampe3 on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:51AM (#30501184)
No Germany back in the 90s was world leading in renewable energies.

World best solar panels but yeah for some reason they solid it to other countries or companies.

So no fossil was not the only way of going forward and it still isn't

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by VaxWithSex on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:02AM (#30501358)
China said: We give money to each and all Chinese companies, that want to do solar cells.

Germany's conservative government then just ignored the German's companies cries for help, costing 200_000 jobs. Why? Well that were moslty voters for the greens, so their jobs weren't of interest.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by leeoniya on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:33AM (#30500897)
the whole nuclear paralysis because of fukushima is rather insane. location & reactor design make a giant difference in risk profile and outcomes.

IMO nuclear is the only real way out of the current mess.

any idea why we dont have several operational MSRs at this point?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor

EDIT: i guess MSRs' structural components are subject to extreme corrosion from heat, salt, and radiation that makes them impossible to build for long-term continous operation.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by xeus2001 on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:58AM (#30501295)
The risk increases non linear with the amount of plants and with the amount of nuclear waste you have. For the waste we have no solution that works, except for storage, which has tons of risk. For the plants itself it is just a matter of possibility when an terrible accident happens. So simply put, there are around 17 meteors every year that hit ground and can cause a disaster, when they hit a nuclear plant of just some storage for waste, not taking tons of other risks like humans, earthquake, war and alike into account. Eventually, a nuclear plant is no more than gambling for your future, because it is guaranteed that an accident will happen, just not when. This does not even take all the other problems into account like the cost. Nuclear powers is unbelievable expensive, compared to solar or wind. They just is cheap on the paper, because you do not care about all the hidden cost.
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by isomel on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:58AM (#30502075)
> For the waste we have no solution that works, except for storage, which has tons of risk

And instead, you burn coal and Gaz which creates even more waste which we can't even store. The difference is that the nuclear waste are localised near you, while the CO2 is spread globally and mostly affect warmer country we don't care about.

> So simply put, there are around 17 meteors every year that hit ground and can cause a disaster

The disaster is made worse because of nuclear infrastructure. But I don't see the point. It is already a disaster to begin with. Look at Fukushima, the real disaster was the earthquake and tsunami that killed and destroyed lots of homes. The incident in the nuclear plant in the area did make it slightly worse, but not by much. Even though the media seem to blame the whole thing on the power plant.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by xeus2001 on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @02:28AM (#30510795)
Building new nuclear plants is no solution, because it takes much more time than building Wind or Solar power plants. Apart of that "I" do nothing, my government does, my only choice is to elect the correct party, which I did and plenty of Germans did as well, which is why the Green party is now the second strongest. When you give a shit about your children, then you are right, in any other case you are totally wrong. The problem is the same with smoking, you do not see anybody dying directly of smoking, therefore this is no problem? However, for things where it helps you argumentation you let this kind of deaths count, like for global warming or* coal pollution. Nuclear waste will be there for the next 100,000 years and our children need to care about it, that should be better than having wind or solar plants?
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by chillingeffect on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:50AM (#30501167)
Paralysis goes way back before fFukushima.

While distance can make them safer, it also makes them less efficient.

There are no standard designs for nuclear reactors yet, although this is slowly changing.

Nuclear reactors have always been run at great subsidy.

Only two MSRs have ever been built, over half a century ago and have a huge list of disadvantages. Not saying that can't be overcome, but it takes time, money, and will. There is some movement in this area.

With solar and wind making such great strides, advantages of nuclear are decreasing.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by Pyramus on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:48AM (#30501137)
It's not that straightforward unfortunately. Let's leave the whole waste deposal issue aside for now, it seems to be still the case that the free market considers nuclear power plants too risky. What I mean by that is that no operator can currently afford to get private insurance for their plants, which is why plants are insured publically.

Markets are not omniscient of course, and they might be ineffective, but it's something to think about when discussing nuclear energy.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by leeoniya on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:55AM (#30501251)
> the free market considers nuclear power plants too risky

the free market is made up of people who primarily watch sensational evening news and follow clickbait social media. the actual statistics are still well on the side of nuclear in terms of safety and externalities (as far as i understand)

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by ahelwer on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:23AM (#30501604)
Nonsense. The "actual statistics" from the perspective of insurance companies are that if anything bad happens, your insurance company is going bankrupt. It doesn't matter how unlikely that's been calculated to be in some spreadsheet model, no smart insurance company will take that bet.
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by fsflover on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:44AM (#30501905)
CO2 tax is still not included into the energy price. If it's done, nuclear will suddenly become much more viable.
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by ahelwer on Monday February 28, 2022 @12:12PM (#30502223)
My point had nothing to do with energy prices and CO2 tax would not change the fundamental calculus faced by insurance companies.
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by treeman79 on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:54AM (#30502026)
The free market could easily build nuclear power plants. The government regulatory hurdles are what keep it from being profitable.
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by isomel on Monday February 28, 2022 @12:03PM (#30502129)
Even with less regulation, the problem is that it takes a huge amount of capital, and you need a decade or more to get return on your investment. So it is really not that interesting for a private investor.
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by raverbashing on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:50AM (#30501177)
For real. If the airline industry had behaved like the nuclear industry we wouldn't be flying planes today

Also, in typical governmental fashion (see: rocket building before SpaceX) power plants were optimized for (size???) instead of safety, cost and time to build.

Things you don't have to optimize for: efficiency

Make it fast to build and in self-contained modules (economies of scale). Make it failsafe (even if it costs efficiency)

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by VaxWithSex on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:05AM (#30501391)
There is not a single one of these "small modular self contained" reactors commerically available or producing power for the grid.

These are called "blueprint reactors", because designing a nuclear reactor is easy, but building one is hard.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by raverbashing on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:43AM (#30501888)
> There is not a single one of these "small modular self contained" reactors commerically available

They exist in nuclear subs. There needs to be investment and research to make them commercially viable.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by layer8 on Monday February 28, 2022 @12:22PM (#30502351)
> There needs to be investment and research to make them commercially viable.

That means that it’s not a near-term solution, and also may turn out to not be viable at all.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by tannhaeuser on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:11AM (#30501463)
That was just a coup of Merkel to take the wind out of the Green party's traditional topic in the wake of the Fukushima accident. She applied that tactic to other topics as well - assuming the PoV of your political opponent to weaken their case. To the point that it was unclear if there are any political ambitions left in her CDU party, other than to stay at power under all circumstances.

Now yesterday Robert Habeck, Germany's minister for economic affairs and climate, and vice chancellor, claimed that a return to nuclear and/or coal is economically not viable, even if it were politically feasible (which it is not, since it would be political suicide given he's from the Green party). He's not stupid, so he knows he'll have to answer how in hell people will even heat their homes come next winter. Not only are energy prices up, but so are materials for home insulation (if you can get them at all) and prices for construction.

Right now, the government has plans to penalize landlords renting out homes with low energy efficiency, a plan typical of the SPD party, the Green party's coalition partner. Which won't work, though, because there simply is no way to reach those levels of energy efficiency given the demand in the construction industry, and in a way that decouples the consumer from their consumption, not to speak of constitutional (existing case law) concerns.

Meanwhile, the housing market is as insane as everywhere due to rampant public spending and the decrease in interest that goes with it. Adding ever more energy efficiency requirements means that it's objectively impossible for any average person to own a home.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by littlecranky67 on Monday February 28, 2022 @02:18PM (#30503781)
> He's not stupid, so he knows he'll have to answer how in hell people will even heat their homes come next winter

As a German, I always wonder why the obvious flaw in these kind of discussions is never addressed: The current heating habbits of our German population is luxury heating - that is we heat every room to be comfy and luxurious standards. And people just claim "Germany needs X percent of gas for heating". But the truth is, if we would not have that gas, or prices would be insanely high, people will change their habits regarding heating and we would need less.

I myself had multiple discussion with my better half in winter when she was cranking up the heater in all rooms, to a level she could just walk around in light underwear and comfy dresses. I always rather heat a single room, close the door, and snug into my skiing thermos, sweatpants and sweater - and keep the time on the can short (not taking the smartphone helps) because its cold in there. This is actually sufficient for most time of the year (minus Mountain regions, but which are only sparsely populated). We do not have siberian winters. And I remember as a child at grandmas, there was a single wooden oven in the living room ("Stube"), everybody was in there together. The bedrooms where not heated at all, instead you take a thermos bottle (or even just hot potatoes in a tin) with you into the bed for the night - of course wearing long-sleeved tights and underwear.

I think a winter without heating would make people in our society aware what luxuries we've gotten accustomed to, and also show people how little one needs when things get serious.

Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by toomuchtodo on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:34AM (#30500923)
Humans can be irrational and poorly quantify/action risk.
Re:Germany aims to get 100% of energy from renewable sources... by _ph_ on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:14AM (#30501508)
Germany hasn't started shutting down nuclear power plants earlier this year. This was a process going on for some years already and was decided ultimately in 2011. Admittedly, currently the timing sucks, but that couldn't be predicted in 2011. Though somehow your comment makes me think, that Putin thought now Germany might be in his hands.

The exit from nuclear power has been planned long ago, but the crucial point is, that in those years the renewables were not expanded enough. Solar buid-up peaked in 2012, Wind in 2017, with steep declines after that because of government decisions. But the government changed last autumn and the new one is all in on renewables. Partially because of the Greens being part of the government and now partially because even industry pushes for this to get cheaper electricity. And everyone wants stable supply and the current situation makes for a huge push towards renewables.