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Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by shafyy on Monday February 28, 2022 @06:13AM (#30498637)
I really don't understand what I'm missing here: How the fuck are cryptos useful to Russian or Ukranian people right now? I mean, they can't buy stuff with it (you know, like food), and if you exchange it to Ruble, why not start with Ruble in the first place?

I know that Ruble will be in a free fall, but cryptos are not stable either. So it's like buying Ruble, but with extra steps.

Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by roenxi on Monday February 28, 2022 @06:37AM (#30498780)
There are basically two outcomes for someone involved in a war. Either their world will end, or they will have to live after the war. Which is a roundabout way of saying that on an individual level the economic calculations aren't that different from usual. They still need to plan on living a life after the current conflict, and will need to preserve their savings despite a rather predatory government looking for logs to throw into the fire of war.

What ordinary people desperately need is assets they can hide from their government to preserve some wealth. However, because it is 2022, they also have the option of assets that literally nobody can take off them. It'd be worth a shot, maybe the legal situation will be different in 5-10 years and if they invest in a crypto they'll be able to trade it for something.

I like their odds in literally anything more than odds in the Russian rouble. So crypto would make sense.

Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by acdha on Monday February 28, 2022 @08:08AM (#30499405)
> However, because it is 2022, they also have the option of assets that literally nobody can take off them.

Don’t oversell it: this is a government with advanced internet monitoring capabilities and little concern about civil liberties. Make one opsec mistake or transact with someone who does, show unexplained money, etc. and then it’s “turn over the key if you want to see your children out of prison”. Blockchains are exceptionally risky here because they require a lot of visible network activity and leave a full history of your activity for the authorities.

Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by roenxi on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @09:48PM (#30523051)
There is a high cost for the Russian government to do that - they have to organise some thugs, analyse the blockchain, set up back channels to on-sell the crypto, etc, etc. With the ruble they print more. Maybe update some numbers in a database. Very low cost. The harder it is to execute, the more likely it is for families to preserve some wealth.

And they can skim off the top of all Russians at once. Even bitcoin is a pretty uncontestable step up - fiat currencies are bad for storing wealth at the best of times but this is really not the best of times. This is the time to flee a sinking ship.

Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by toyg on Monday February 28, 2022 @07:51AM (#30499276)
> assets they can hide from their government to preserve some wealth

I doubt that a government who pioneered cyberwarfare will be unable to locate your bitcoins; and once you do that, to acquire them they only need some goon with a monkeywrench - of which, I'm sure, there is no scarcity in Russia right now.

Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by karpierz on Monday February 28, 2022 @08:44AM (#30499715)
Or just install a keylogger/virus on your computer to take your crypto.
Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by shafyy on Monday February 28, 2022 @06:53AM (#30498871)
Ok, I can see this point. Still, I think the vast majority of people need money now, especially in a poor country like Russia.
Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by davidwritesbugs on Monday February 28, 2022 @06:37AM (#30498777)
Extra steps, and extra fees, and the risk of exchanges. So I don't think you're missing anything. It's Bitcoin maximalist economic nonsense.
Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by lostmsu on Monday February 28, 2022 @08:42PM (#30508100)
At this point alternatives also include significant risks.
Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by Tenoke on Monday February 28, 2022 @06:42AM (#30498802)
I expect it's easy to send funds via crypto to and from there and regardless of sanctions from the west. It's unlikely to be the only solution even after swift and other bans but it's an easyish extra option, especially for those already familiar with the ecosystem.
Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by shafyy on Monday February 28, 2022 @06:52AM (#30498862)
Ok, let's say it is easier and cheaper to send funds via crypto (which I'd argue is not generally the case). I'm a Russian in Russia and somebody sent me some Bitcoin. What do I do next to use this money?
Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by Tenoke on Monday February 28, 2022 @07:05AM (#30498963)
Localbitcoin/local crypto/localmonero and similar (e.g. asking at a crypto meetup forum) are an option if bank transfers don't work. Bitcoin ATMs if you really are in a hurry and willing to take a potentially high exchange rate hit.

Otherwise there's exchanges which still operate within Russia for the time being and some business (tho too rare to be useful but In a big city, if you don't have funds others than what was sent to you, you might be able to buy more than otherwise) accept it though I wouldn't rely on that too much unless you know a specific one.

Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by toyg on Monday February 28, 2022 @07:53AM (#30499289)
Until a quick decree makes bitcoin exchanges illegal.
Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by shafyy on Monday February 28, 2022 @08:24AM (#30499526)
Ok, but at this point I could have just gotten Ruble in the first place no?
Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by Tenoke on Monday February 28, 2022 @08:28AM (#30499564)
If you can then sure it's not for you.

However, not everyone can receive or send rubles as easily to/from the west especially after the SWIFT and related bans. Either way, it doesn't hurt to have the extra option.

Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by kwhitefoot on Monday February 28, 2022 @08:15AM (#30499462)
> Bitcoin ATMs

Where might I find one of these (near mythical) beasts?

Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by Tenoke on Monday February 28, 2022 @08:22AM (#30499506)
Search near your location at:

https://coinatmradar.com/

https://www.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-atm/

I've been seeing them occasionally in big cities since 2014-15 though again it's never worth it at least for me - the exchange rate is typically pretty bad and I'd rather wait but go through a low fee/feeless option.

Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by kwhitefoot on Friday March 04, 2022 @09:02AM (#30554818)
Nearest is in Kiel, just short of 600 km away. If I drive to it it will take about eleven hours and involve driving in four countries to drive almost 1000 km.
Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by syntheweave on Monday February 28, 2022 @07:13AM (#30499018)
Find another person who accepts Bitcoin and do business with them. Neither of you has to exchange to rubles to participate in the economy.

At some point the flow does have to exit to something that a corporation or ministry controls; so an exchange business will necessarily appear, even if it's extremely high risk; someone will be in a position to pull strings. It's not a stretch when you look at how countries with weak local currencies have been operating for decades, just usually with USD as the preferred trade currency instead.

Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by koonsolo on Monday February 28, 2022 @06:49AM (#30498846)
We're talking about savings here. Buy crypto stablecoins, store somewhere encrypted. Then move out of Russia and collect your savings. Or wait it out until the dust settles.

Anyway, do you have a better way how to store wealth or savings in such situations? Crypto seems like a very good option.

Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by shafyy on Monday February 28, 2022 @06:55AM (#30498888)
I'd wager most Russians don't have savings, and need money today to feed themselves. And for most people just moving out and collecting our Bitcoin savings is not a viable option, not even in the future.

I don't have a better way, but I'm just saying that crypto is also not a good way.

Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by wanderingstan on Monday February 28, 2022 @07:45AM (#30499221)
> I'd wager most Russians don't have savings

Russia is not a country of people living on the edge of starvation. They have savings and save up to buy houses like any middle class people.

Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by kwhitefoot on Monday February 28, 2022 @08:32AM (#30499599)
According to Wikipedia median Russian wealth is only a bit over 5 kUSD per person. Ukraine 2.5 kUSD. I haven't been able to find figures for actual savings in Russia but this page https://www.expertmarket.com/credit-card-processing/countrie... gives figures for the countries that save most. Russia is not on the list, but for comparison Norwegians mean annual savings are almost 5 kUSD per year.

So Russians might not be on the edge of starvation but I imagine that a substantial minority could find themselves close to that edge quite quickly.

Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by shafyy on Monday February 28, 2022 @08:28AM (#30499562)
The median US citizen's savings is around $5k, and the US is the richest country on Earth (or so I'm told) [0]. So, my point stands: Most people don't have a lot of savings, and don't have the luxury to just save money for a later date.

0: https://www.valuepenguin.com/banking/average-savings-account...

Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by soared on Monday February 28, 2022 @09:30AM (#30500186)
That is bank account value (typically spending money and emergency fund) and does not include retirement savings (401k, ira) or other wealth stores (house, car) so it’s not really an accurate picture of long term savings.
Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by shafyy on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:09AM (#30500610)
Yes, but how would they turn their 401k and house into Bitcoin?
Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by smartties on Monday February 28, 2022 @06:45AM (#30498823)
As much as I dislike the whole crypto space, I can see how crypto stable coins (which comes with it's own risk...) could help Russian people secure their savings against government seizing and also fight against the devaluation of their currency.
Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by shafyy on Monday February 28, 2022 @06:51AM (#30498852)
I think it's naive to think that the Russian government can't interfere with funds held in crypto by Russian people. In the least, they can prevent them converting it to fiat currency.
Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by iso1631 on Monday February 28, 2022 @07:06AM (#30498979)
For now. In 5 years who knows.
Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by zaarn on Monday February 28, 2022 @09:33AM (#30500212)
Russia is likely to outlaw cryptocurrencies for that reason (of course the rich will be able to do it with no punishment). But the small citizen will just get visited by putin's police and beaten within an inch of dying, before being told to never touch crypto again, on the mere suspicion they are using cryptocurrencies.
Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by koonsolo on Monday February 28, 2022 @06:50AM (#30498849)
Welcome to the other side ;).
Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by discreteevent on Monday February 28, 2022 @07:08AM (#30498986)
In this particular case it is more likely that the other side has a high percentage of oligarchs who have had plenty of time and ability to divest to crypto and other assets outside of government control. Most of the people on the street wouldn't even know where to start. So welcome to the other side, same as this side, same as it ever was.
Re:Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to se... by koonsolo on Monday February 28, 2022 @09:09AM (#30499933)
You are misreading my response. It was because HN is known to be anti-crypto. So I meant 'welcome to the pro crypto side'.

And to your response, maybe instead disallowing all people crypto, let's make it easier for everyone. Times like this make it more clear than ever that crypto is not just a "solution looking for a problem".