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Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by jacquesm on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:30PM (#30473141)
> Because we are not able to stand against gov?

But you can.

> Well, we are not able

No, you won't.

That's fine but don't make it seem like there is no choice, there is plenty of evidence of people in Russia protesting and they have made a different choice than you.

And "current operation" is distancing language. It's an invasion or a war, not an operation.

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by kmogpfdk on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:39PM (#30473235)
There are very severe consequences for protesting. I don't blame him if he puts his and his family's lives first.
Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by jacquesm on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:44PM (#30473287)
I don't blame him either. I'm just pointing out there is a choice.

Totally understood that not everybody is in a position to make that choice, now or maybe ever. But there is safety in numbers.

https://www.inyourpocket.com/gdansk/the-story-of-solidarity-...

FWIW I was in Poland at the time, the people there were absolutely phenomenal, and the amount of personal hardship and risk endured blew me away. Unstoppable, they would have happily run their country into the ground first. Big difference: they had relatively little left to lose, Poland had been bled dry by the Soviets over decades. By contrast Russians today have far more to lose, or so they may believe, when in fact they probably have more to lose from Putin's continued presence.

A dictator is one thing, an unhinged dictator quite another.

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by sneak on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:40PM (#30473757)
The Russian people who protested the war are now in prison, arrested for an illegal/unpermitted assembly.

Sanctions are cruel and ineffective.

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by jacquesm on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:47PM (#30473812)
> Sanctions are cruel and ineffective.

You know what's cruel? War is cruel.

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by sneak on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:52PM (#30473855)
I agree. Unfortunately those prosecuting this war knew that sanctions were coming, and will be largely/wholly unaffected by them.

It is only normal people, most of whom are against war, who will suffer as a result. Doctors who can't source medicine, workers who can't pay their staff, et c.

These sanctions will not negatively affect Putin; he has expected them for years and indeed has been explicitly preparing to cope with them.

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by jacquesm on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:53PM (#30473866)
That's true but the sanctions do send a message, especially if those sanctions also affect the EU: that we are willing to take a hit to get this under control.

Regardless: if Russia doesn't come to its senses quickly the country will likely not recover in the next 40 years or so from the kind of damage they are doing to their stature on the international stage, this is not the kind of thing you walk away from and claim it was 'just Putin'. Time is running out, and the easy solutions have all already been pre-empted by events.

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by sneak on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:59PM (#30473904)
Russia is a lot more than its military dictators, it is the Russian people you are talking about harming.

Should cancer patients in Oklahoma not be permitted to buy chemotherapy medications because Bush invaded Iraq?

We banned collective punishment in the Geneva Convention because it is insane and unjust.

I have persian friends with family in Iran who can testify firsthand to how damaging sanctions are to people who have no ability whatsoever to remedy the problems that caused the sanctions to be put in place. Personifying countries is an error.

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by jacquesm on Friday February 25, 2022 @07:13PM (#30474012)
> Russia is a lot more than its military dictators, it is the russian people you are talking about harming.

Yes, and I'm sorry about that. But that is the country that is currently invading another country.

> Should cancer patients in Oklahoma not be permitted to buy chemotherapy medications because Bush invaded Iraq?

I'm out of patience for the day for silly arguments, sorry.

> We banned collective punishment in the Geneva Convention because it is insane and unjust.

That's not what collective punishment is about.

> I have persian friends with family in Iran who can testify firsthand to how damaging sanctions are to people who have no ability whatsoever to remedy the problems that caused the sanctions to be put in place. Personifying countries is an error.

Yes, this is called collateral damage. See also: photos of Ukrainian kids sheltering in the Kiev subway today in fear of the Russian onslaught headed towards their city, if you want to personify this then maybe have a look at those instead of trying to gain sympathy for the citizens of the aggressor nation.

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by sneak on Friday February 25, 2022 @07:38PM (#30474210)
I have sympathy for the innocent people on all sides of these invisible lines who are or will be harmed by the criminal, violent actions of a tiny minority. Nationality does not enter in to it at all.

Using techniques that will not affect those who caused the war, while severely punishing those who are not involved in the war (simply because of where they live), will not help the situation, it will make it worse.

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by jacquesm on Friday February 25, 2022 @07:50PM (#30474278)
Sanctions are a required step in this process, it is annoying but that's how it is. Skipping that step would require a far stronger response at this stage, and that is really going to punish people that are bystanders. But it may well come to that.
Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by ytpete on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @03:19AM (#30597733)
Isn't Iran a great example of sanctions actually having some useful effect, though? In 2015 Iran agreed to give up much of its nuclear program in exchange for lifting many of the US/UN/EU sanctions.
Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by tsol on Saturday February 26, 2022 @02:02AM (#30475709)
This no nonsense attitude never gets applied to western countries though. Droning weddings is cruel. Yet no one blames that on American citizens
Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by willcipriano on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:34PM (#30473192)
Just vote harder guys, and make pithy signs.

Protests don't even work in the west, how can they work in Russia?

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by jacquesm on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:40PM (#30473245)
Protests work: if they are large enough.
Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by willcipriano on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:46PM (#30473306)
That's sort of a no true scottsman. Occupy wall street resulted in nothing, BLM protests were huge to no lasting effect, massive anti war protests in the early 2000's resulted in a couple decades of war. What ones recently were big enough? Million man march? That was just LBJ buying votes if you ask him about it privately.
Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by dragonwriter on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:02PM (#30473441)
> BLM protests were huge to no lasting effect

Accountability for criminal homicide of Black people, especially by law enforcement, has definitely increased since BLM became a force. Whether that's a lasting effect is, of course, too soon to say, but it's not to be casually dismissed as you have.

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by thaumasiotes on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:53PM (#30473865)
> Accountability for criminal homicide of Black people, especially by law enforcement, has definitely increased since BLM became a force.

Especially by law enforcement, or only by law enforcement? Criminal homicide of blacks is way up since BLM.

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by jacquesm on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:49PM (#30473342)
None of those resulted in crippling the country, which is the level you need.

Without Russia propping him up Lukashenko would be out by now.

Think Solidarity, not BLM and get the whole country to grind to a halt. That will make a difference. By the time the police and the army have to decide if they want to open fire on their family it can be won. But for that to happen something major will have to change in Russia first.

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by willcipriano on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:54PM (#30473372)
In Canada they just had protests that crippled the country, they just took food and the ability to bank or heat themselves from the protestors until they gave up. No change. Imagine if Trudeau had a gulag.
Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by jacquesm on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:57PM (#30473396)
That was a few hundred people at best. Anyway, I can see that you believe strongly that protests don't work, I've been eyewitness to protests that did work and that changed the direction of a country (in fact, multiple countries) in a massive way.

Those instances are rare, but that's an existence proof that you can't deny (and there are, historically, more examples).

Note that the support for those Canadian protests amongst ordinary Canadians was minimal.

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by mardifoufs on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:54PM (#30474882)
I'd assume support for those anti war protests in a time of war is probably lower than the support for the truckers in canada (which wasn't that low, 30-40% of the population). Does that make anti war protests in russia illegitimate ? Especially since appearing to undermine a war effort is usually universally despised once a war starts. Even the iraq war started with 90% of americans rallying behind bush and supported the war, so the legitimacy of the war itself does not seem to matter a lot.
Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by jacquesm on Friday February 25, 2022 @10:07PM (#30474940)
> Does that make anti war protests in russia illegitimate ?

According to the Russian authorities, yes. According to me: those people are real heroes, right now it is far more dangerous to join such protests than when the numbers are higher, especially in places like Russia.

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by osigurdson on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:40PM (#30473759)
Virtually every Canadian province has dropped vaccine passports or is in the process of doing so. This was not the case before the protests began. While it's possible that this would have happened anyway (and not even the purview of the federal government), it seems likely that protests accelerated things.

Of course, I'm not sure there are many parallels here to the situation in Russia/Ukraine.

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by myko on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:54PM (#30473375)
protests worked in russia in 1917
Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by paulryanrogers on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:43PM (#30473780)
Wasn't it an armed uprising?
Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by myko on Friday February 25, 2022 @10:03PM (#30474928)
Unless I'm misunderstanding the request here that is what folks are truly asking the Russian population to do. Someone must physically cast Putin down within Russia itself. I agree peaceful protests inside the country will not work.
Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by gutitout on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:45PM (#30473303)
This incredible high brow view is a stain on what is happening in Russia. I’m in America and I am not at all surprised that our private company’s are in the pocket of our government interests, once again. This would feel like ANOTHER provocation, if you are a Russian official. I wonder if we will see Americans realize that (at least in part) this Russian aggression is a retaliation to how the USA / EU policies have put the Ukrainian people in incredible danger for their own political motives.

To be clear, against all war and what is happening in Russia is also equally unacceptable.

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by paulryanrogers on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:41PM (#30473762)
> ...how the USA / EU policies have put the Ukrainian people in incredible danger for their own political motive.

Please excuse my ignorance but how did the US and EU put the UA people in danger?

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by gutitout on Friday February 25, 2022 @07:21PM (#30474061)
I want to preface this by saying that I 100% disagree with the war in Ukraine and the Russian infiltration and my heart goes out to the Ukrainian people. Also, please feel free to correct me or argue these points! A few ways: 1. NATO is largely an anti-Russian coalition. With many of its boarder neighboring countries being part of it. You can google the map and you will see the strategic position of those countries. In the West, only Belarus and Ukraine have not been added to this list of Russian neighboring countries. The USA & EU has been running military drills at those locations for many decades in an act of intimidation. 2. Sanctions are effecting mostly the everyday people of Russia. This is gathering more support internally for Putin’s aggression. 3. The Ukraine has a major movement toward the west in the last decade. Making Ukraine NATO would be another enemy at the boarder and this would be unfavorable for the Russian’s. Again provoking conflict in the region. 4. There has been no attempt by the USA to work with Putin or the Russian officials. Even using Russia as a scapegoat for the Wikileaks dump in 2016. And of course so, so much more anti Russian sentiment in our media ahead of this. 5. Biden and his sons involvement in the Ukraine (as reported on in 2020 by some of the US media) shows the constant strain that the Ukrainians are under. A pawn between the USA and Russia. Open to thoughts and opinions by everyone!
Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by paulryanrogers on Friday February 25, 2022 @07:52PM (#30474290)
Thanks for sharing that perspective. I'm curious if those NATO members bordering Russia were pressured into joining by the US/EU or felt compelled by other outside influence.
Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by jacquesm on Friday February 25, 2022 @07:56PM (#30474319)
The third option: they were asking pro actively to be allowed to join.

This is pretty well documented.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by slt2021 on Friday February 25, 2022 @11:25PM (#30475204)
Maybe Putin's Russia should not exist in its current form?

Russian people are infested and brain washed with decades of propaganda. I hope this war and sanctions will cripple the country back into 1990s and Russian state cease to exist in its current form, regime, and borders.

Russia is seriously sick and must rid itself from Putin first

Re:Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media by jacquesm on Friday February 25, 2022 @07:46PM (#30474265)
> 1. NATO is largely an anti-Russian coalition

Factually incorrect, the word 'Russia' doesn't appear in NATO's charter, it is first and foremost a security pact. That Russia ends up in the position of the main party to worry about is in principle unrelated to that, but obviously it is the reality, as Russia has proven beyond any doubt now.

> You can google the map and you will see the strategic position of those countries.

Those countries were and are where they always were, and they were happy to join NATO precisely because they feel threatened by Russia, which is not without reason, they were under Russian occupation for decades.

> In the West, only Belarus and Ukraine have not been added to this list of Russian neighboring countries.

You missed Sweden and Finland.

Belarus is a vassal state of Russia, and does not have a functioning democracy. Ukraine has asked to join but this has to date not happened. The fact that it just so happened to be Ukraine that is attacked seems to lend credence to the fact that being a NATO member has its advantages and that those countries made the right decision.

> The USA & EU has been running military drills at those locations for many decades in an act of intimidation.

No, you run military drills to ensure that if and when you ever need them they will work, if you need to figure that stuff out - especially with multiple nations operating together - when you need it then you have already lost.

FWIW Russia does exactly the same thing.

> 2. Sanctions are effecting mostly the everyday people of Russia.

Yes.

> This is gathering more support internally for Putin’s aggression.

You have cause and effect reversed.

> 3. The Ukraine has a major movement toward the west in the last decade.

Which they were entirely free to make. Russia needs to 'stay in its lane'.

> Making Ukraine NATO would be another enemy at the boarder and this would be unfavorable for the Russian’s.

Note that you want to see NATO as 'the enemy'.

> 4. There has been no attempt by the USA to work with Putin or the Russian officials.

The USA is not involved in this conflict. China hasn't attempted to work with Putin or Russian officials either. And FWIW those Russian officials that were worked with were lying through their teeth, which is on the record.

> Even using Russia as a scapegoat for the Wikileaks dump in 2016.

Which has nothing to do with Ukraine.

> And of course so, so much more anti Russian sentiment in our media ahead of this.

'our'?

> 5. Biden and his sons involvement in the Ukraine (as reported on in 2020 by some of the US media) shows the constant strain that the Ukrainians are under.

Not relevant.

> A pawn between the USA and Russia.

In your mind, perhaps, but not in the mind of Europeans or Ukrainians for that matter, who mostly just want to get on with their lives, which a deranged dictator has now made impossible. This confrontation is on Russia and Russia alone, and any kind of attempts to whitewash it or to paint some alternative story is so much bs.

> Open to thoughts and opinions by everyone!

If anything the EU and the US should have done more, not less to arm the Ukraine, but they were under the mistaken impression that that would trigger a Russian response, if they had known then what we know now I'm fairly sure the situation would be completely different. But we're on to it now, and those that still aren't will wake up soon enough.