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Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by mardifoufs on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:54PM (#30472814)
Funnily enough, if you watch the entirety of the videos from this guy he is pretty clearly talking about leftist subversion. Without taking any side here or agreeing with him, just listen to when he talks about subversive education (for example he talks about a push for more social sciences and other "unsubstantial" education ) or to what he refers to as demoralization (which is according to his definition is saying stuff like america was never great, we shouldn't feel proud of our past, and just in general a constant push for victimization).

It's funny how I guess both sides ended up thinking he is referring to the other side though.

Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by rootusrootus on Friday February 25, 2022 @10:46PM (#30475091)
> saying stuff like america was never great

I'd say it is working. The sheer quantity of anti-American rhetoric online, places like Reddit and even on HN, is astounding. Ostensibly coming from our own citizens, in many cases. If this kind of self-loathing is reality, we have a big problem indeed. The optimist in me likes to assume that a good chunk of it is planted deliberately by America's foes.

Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by tremon on Sunday February 27, 2022 @06:43PM (#30494098)
The sheer quantity of anti-American rhetoric online

The only way to make a great country greater is to acknowledge its flaws and strive to correct them. The default mode of communication seems to have been people pointing out US failures, and US people widely shouting them down, regardless of the merit of the claim. That has also been a major factor driving anti-American rhetoric, you can't blame that on foreign influence.

Or, in other words: anti-American rhetoric coming from American citizens is a good thing: it makes the country better.

Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by ttybird2 on Saturday February 26, 2022 @12:14AM (#30475353)
The USA did this to itself though, with its actions both against the citizens of other countries and its own.
Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by tablespoon on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:07PM (#30472934)
> Funnily enough, if you watch the entirety of the videos from this guy he is pretty clearly talking about leftist subversion.

Wouldn't subversion be opportunistic, though? Maybe during Cold War, their tactics had more success on the left, but more recently they've had more success on the right. If your goal is to subvert the whole, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by ericmcer on Saturday February 26, 2022 @01:29AM (#30475605)
Say what you want about the right but they are good for fervent patriotism and turning a blind eye to the government exploiting other countries, the environment, etc. These are definitely not ideals we want to embrace but a blindly patriotic and immoral U.S.A. is a way bigger threat to Russia/China than a self-loathing one constantly battling internally.
Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by mardifoufs on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:20PM (#30473058)
From what I understood from his speeches, I think he's saying that some leftist ideology is inherently subversive.

I guess it makes sense and it doesn't have to be pejorative: conservatives are usually more attached to traditional structures while historically leftist groups push for a transformative change. Subversion is a good way to transform a structure.

A good example would be the 1619 projet that, whether you agreed with its message or not, explicitly aimed at undermining the current mainstream narrative on the history of the USA. I can't think of any right wing equivalent

Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by kaitai on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:48PM (#30473326)
There is no right wing equivalent because of the structurally different ways in which the right and left position their narratives. The appeal to the right wing in the US is via Christian nationalism and distrust of authority (from scientists to lamestream media to the US gov't). The right wing in the US buttresses its legitimacy by claiming that Christian nationalism is the historically correct point of view and is the "traditional structure". This is in fact false, but the whole point is that the right wing (as you point out) couches its message in terms of "this is the truth and the way it's always been" while the left wing appeals for transformative change. A wholesale move to Christian nationalism would be in fact a transformative change for the US, but you gotta be cognizant of how you sell it, right? The new right-wing distrust for the US military and US intelligence and support for Russia is pretty transformative. It's just good sales.
Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by ttybird2 on Saturday February 26, 2022 @12:18AM (#30475371)
Since when is "distrust of authority" a right wing thing? This has been traditionally been a leftist doctrine (with various ideologies such as anarchism focusing on that, along with revolutionary groups that fight against said authorities).
Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by kaitai on Saturday February 26, 2022 @02:18PM (#30480831)
I know! Isn't it amazing?! Yet now it's a hallmark of right-wing thought in the US! My Republican relatives are absolutely sure that everyone in government, medicine, science, and education is lying to them or trying to manipulate them.
Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by teh64 on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:51PM (#30473852)
There was literally a response to the 1619 project by Trump: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1776_Commission
Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by baybal2 on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:22PM (#30473075)
> Wouldn't subversion be opportunistic, though? Maybe during Cold War, their tactics had more success on the left, but more recently they've had more success on the right. If your goal is to subvert the whole, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Read what I wrote in another comment. It doesn't matter if it's left, or right for as long as disturbing random discourse keeps your mind jammed, and prevents you from seeing things for what they are.

Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by 8note on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:59PM (#30472857)
Is it demoralizing to say that the US was never great? It wasn't, but it was always getting better, and it still is.

To me it seems more demoralizing to look back and think things have gotten worse

Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by mardifoufs on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:10PM (#30472959)
Yes but a lot of people actually are starting to think that things have actually gotten worse (especially since 2020, and they are obviously totally wrong imo)

And yes of course it's demoralizing, his theory was that if you think your country is evil or based on evil and not much better than anything else why would you ever fight for it? Especially when faced with an enemy who actually believes that he is dying for a great cause, and the best system.

From a cold war perspective, if the other side doesn't believe his system to be superior anymore that could've been decisive to win a war. Just look at the vietnam war and how it (thankfully) ended.

Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by pempem on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:05PM (#30473462)
The first feeling I had upon reading your comment was that it felt like it was pulled from the Milosevich playbook, who used Russian support and at one point had potential for Russian troops to help him continue to further divide his country and and basically pursue genocide.

Then my normalcy bias kicked in and I thought "it would never get that bad"

Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by alar44 on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:10PM (#30473502)
We're you alive before 9/11? Things are far worse in the US than 20 years ago. Literally everything.
Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by convolvatron on Friday February 25, 2022 @09:44PM (#30474846)
what does it even _mean_ for the US to have been 'great'. its just some kind of pointless narcissism.
Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by panzagl on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:57PM (#30472836)
Well, to divide a country you need two sides...
Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by kova12 on Friday February 25, 2022 @10:35PM (#30475055)
Don't forget the "sex cults" he constantly mentioned, that not only came to fruition, even better - everyone is now scared to even discuss how trans should not compete in women's sports for example
Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by csee on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:06PM (#30472928)
Well they clearly changed tactics, didn't they. RT is right-leaning propaganda and all his most dangerous stooges (Tucker Carlson, Bannon) are too.
Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by mardifoufs on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:25PM (#30473103)
I guess bannon has a pretty subversive aim but I don't see how Tucker Carlson, no matter how controversial he is, is subversive when he mostly supports traditional power structures. He's basically pushing a bog standard anti war populist narrative,which he has done consistently in the past 4 years regardless of it involved russia.

What I'm essentially saying is that he doesn't really fit into the "demoralize/destabilize/subvert/normalize" framework. But that's not to say he doesn't fit very well in others ;)

Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by cma on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:46PM (#30473313)
He had on a neofeudalist/neoreactionary/hbd guy just to banter with him (Moldbug).
Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by csee on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:45PM (#30473295)
Tucker clips are being broadcasted right now inside Russia as part of their state sponsored propaganda. His description of Ukraine as a US client state and other pro-Putin propaganda is harming Ukrainians.
Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by ttybird2 on Saturday February 26, 2022 @12:27AM (#30475395)
I think the question is if he is intentionally spreading information which he knows that it is wrong, which is not necessarily true. This seems to be a common perception of the situation. As for whether it is harming Ukrainians I would say that it is debatable.
Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by polishdude20 on Saturday February 26, 2022 @01:01AM (#30475503)
The interesting thing is to notice how Putin calls the Ukrainians Nazis. It's like he's thinking that it's an easy word to throw around because our society is so prevalent with people throwing that word around. It's like the subversion tactics were to make it easy to call someone a nazi and make it so commonplace to cancel people that he's literally using that term himself.
Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by dragonwriter on Saturday February 26, 2022 @01:08AM (#30475530)
> It's like he's thinking that it's an easy word to throw around because our society is so prevalent with people throwing that word around.

No, it's more like he is a Russian authoritarian leader appealing to the greatest imagery of Russian national struggle to make a war of aggression look like something more noble.

Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by csomar on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:55PM (#30473379)
So it looks like they are subverting both sides now. America is screwed.
Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by noobermin on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:58PM (#30472848)
Bezmenov is ideologically a conservative and pushed conservative ideology once he was in America, so it warrants taking this with a grain of salt. That said, today it feels like Russian misinfo targets anti-establishment groups on both sides, both far-right and far-left types.
Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by inglor_cz on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:33PM (#30473171)
This is also from 1984. Things have changed quite a bit from then.

Back then, organizations like Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament were Soviet-influenced.

Re:KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984) by mardifoufs on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:22PM (#30473073)
Oh I completely agree that he doesn't have a lot of credibility but I guess his message is still theoretically interesting even if it's potentially only fiction.