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Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by sandworm101 on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:33PM (#30471277)
I don't understand why Russia, or anyone else, thinks that Ukraine was anywhere near joining NATO. Ukraine had bits of it that were occupied by Russia, specifically Crimea. There was no way Ukraine would have been allowed to join under such circumstances because such occupations would have immediately triggered Article 5. Letting Ukraine into NATO would be tantamount to declaring war on Russia. It was never a real option.

What Russia feared was some sort of non-NATO but friendly partnership deal that might see NATO weapons in Ukraine. Actual membership wasn't the issue.

Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by jopsen on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:57PM (#30471628)
Spot on, Ukraine wouldn't have joined NATO until their border disputes was resolved. So probably not anytime the next 20-30 years.

Demands by Russia were disingenuous, because they would never have been honored. And I doubt honoring them wouldn't have stopped anything.

Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by CRConrad on Monday March 07, 2022 @09:01AM (#30587869)
> I don't understand why Russia, or anyone else, thinks that Ukraine was anywhere near joining NATO.

I don't understand why anyone thinks that Russia thought that Ukraine was anywhere near joining NATO.

Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by mindslight on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:53PM (#30471572)
> I don't understand why Russia, or anyone else, thinks that Ukraine was anywhere near joining NATO

IMO, because this is how all of Putin's propaganda has framed it. NATO is some big bully ("Nazi") that keeps "aggressing" by letting sovereign countries liberalize and freely associate with the West. The shameless destruction of Ukraine is right in line with the authoritarian autocrats's imperative - turn the place into a burnt out shithole so it can be better ruled over, and so that reactionary survival values become relevant again.

The fate of Ukraine is (regrettably) solely in the hands of the Ukrainians at this point, but Russia's crass action is also an attack on the ethos of our Western society - cooperation, openness, democracy, and the rule of law - however flawed they end up being. I would say that Putin's chest thumping at other countries is just intended to make the western world feel relieved when only Ukraine gets conquered, but I feel that's coming from the same optimistic-rational place as the idea that there wasn't going to be a full scale invasion in the first place.

Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by CRConrad on Monday March 07, 2022 @09:12AM (#30587991)
> I would say that Putin's chest thumping at other countries is just intended to make the western world feel relieved when only Ukraine gets conquered, but I feel that's coming from the same optimistic-rational place as the idea that there wasn't going to be a full scale invasion in the first place.

Yes and no: It's true for now, but it will turn out to have been optimistic when he takes the next one[1].

Wonder how long the West is going to go on falling for it? Until he dies of natural causes, at far too high an age[2], or well beyond -- when an equally Stalinesque / Hitleresque successor is firmly ensconced and keeps on doing it?

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[1]: And the next, and the next, and...

[2]: That is, anything above about fifty.

Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by wavefunction on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:43PM (#30471406)
Putin is lying when he proffers reasons and rationalizations for the evil and illegal acts of his government.
Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by belter on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:36PM (#30471311)
Because if you watched Putin speech, he said Ukraine is not a different country from Russia.
Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by speeder on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:39PM (#30471352)
Ukraine added that they will join NATO to their constitution, and in the past months NATO started to ramp up the amount of NATO weaponry in or near Ukraine.

Russia reaction is basically the reaction of anyone cornered, something Sun Tzu warned about, if someone is cornered they will fight back hard because they can't retreat, they can only go forward, through whoever is cornering them.

Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by dragonwriter on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:58PM (#30471641)
> Ukraine added that they will join NATO to their constitution, and in the past months NATO started to ramp up the amount of NATO weaponry in or near Ukraine.

Ukraine has been bulking up their army with help from various, especially NATO, countries since Russian invaded, conquered, and purportedly annexed a big part of their country in 2014 (and assisted with the occupation by anti-government forces of other parts) and they didn't have the capacity for meaningful, much less successful, resistance.

The Ukrainian military buildup was a situation of Russia’s own making.

Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by FrenchAmerican on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:55PM (#30473879)
This is really out of touch with reality. Russia has been provoking military incidents almost every day for years.

From memory, in total, western airforces had to block Russian fighters entering their sovereign territory 240 times in 2021. French fighters were sent several times to stop Russian fighters in the English Channel, e.g. 2000 km from their base.

Then you can add Russia submarines nosing around, spy vessels desguised as fishing vessels going close to points of military interests (for example, when one of the 6 French nuclear submarines dive from its base nearby Brest on the Atlantic Ocean, tens of French fishing vessels are invited to circle around to mask the submarine noise. Every time, there are Russian fish vessels popping up that very day.

In the last decade, Russia has been testing our detection capacities, speed of reaction, going as far as receiving summation fires from Western fighters.

Russia has been in an aggressive attitude for at leat the past decade. That must stop.

I think Sweden should join NATO. Finland is a more complicated case, since they already have a specific agreement with Russia and are so vulnerable. They may prefer the status quo.

Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by CRConrad on Monday March 07, 2022 @09:52AM (#30588465)
> Finland is a more complicated case, since they already have a specific agreement with Russia

What, do you mean the Finno-Soviet Treaty of 1948[1]? That ended in 1992, and "[w]hen in January 1992 the new Treaty of Friendship was complemented by the exchange of notes terminating the 1948 treaty, the last remnant of restrictions on an independent Finnish foreign policy were formally removed."[2]

> and are so vulnerable. They may prefer the status quo.

I doubt it.[3] The Finns have been vulnerable to Russia before, and know how to hold a grudge. A majority[4] is for membership now.

On Friday the fifth of March (I think it was), the Eduskunta -- the Finnish Parliament -- debated NATO membership. And not one, but two Citizens' Initiatives that have each gathered enough signatures to make (further?) parliamentary discussion mandatory.

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[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Soviet_Treaty_of_1948

[2]: https://web.archive.org/web/20181125193537/https://www.forei...

[3]: Source: Personal experience; lived here for 27 years now.

[4]: https://yle.fi/news/3-12337202

Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by CRConrad on Monday March 07, 2022 @09:14AM (#30588028)
> Russia reaction is basically the reaction of anyone cornered

If you're "cornered" because your neighbours feel a need to defend themselves from your aggression, the problem isn't with them but with you.

Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by grey-area on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:14PM (#30471830)
Perhaps stop watching Russia Today and/or Fox News.
Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by svarnypetr on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:50PM (#30471527)
I did not make a reconstruction of the timeline, but weren't the NATO amounts growing only after the Russian troops started growing and doing their larger and larger exercises that seemed worrying (and escalated now into the invasion)?
Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by speeder on Sunday February 27, 2022 @01:30AM (#30485934)
NATO started growing when Russia was still all kinds of fucked up, with the first phase being in 1997 if I remember correctly.
Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by CRConrad on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:44AM (#30597473)
"Growing" in number of members generally, perhaps. Like, way up in the Baltics and so on.

But:

>>> the amount of NATO weaponry in or near Ukraine.

This was specifically about this conflict.