I just donated to the Ukrainian army. They’re people too, and deserve the best medical and logistic support money can buy.

The ruling class in Moscow isn’t just attacking some other ruling class. They’re attacking _my_ Europe.

I don’t care about any military-industrial complex, or even the military in general. But the moment that some misguided person decides to launch rockets at Europe, I’m not willing to just sit back and let that happen.

This is effectively no different than donating money to the United States military. I can hardly imagine a more ridiculous thing to do with money.

> no different than donating money to the United States military

Which Americans did. In World War II.

With donations, war bonds and by accepting massive sacrifices to their quality of life through rations, price controls and more. We did this when we felt threatened. Last I checked, the Canadians weren’t rolling tanks into Syracuse.

This is precisely the delusion that makes America such an insane global actor. Get over yourself! The Nazis lost! The USSR won the war! Move on!

> Move on!

This is an inchoate line of argument. You ask for precedent and then object to it being in the past.

WWII was the last time America was attacked by a foreign state. Ukraine is being attacked by a foreign state. The analogy shouldn’t be lofty enough to go over one’s head. If Russia rolls tanks into the Baltics we’ll have a new analogy for the ensuing half century. For the time being, I’m fine letting the precedent age.

...in Europe. There was war all over the world, hence, World War. The Soviets suffered tremendously _before_ and during that war (mostly at the hands of their own gov't). They didn't fight for their gov't, they fought for their home.

Please do not try and take an immensely complex topic and boil it down to the point it has no meaning.

Yes, the Soviets defeated the Nazi's with some distraction, tech and assistance from the Allies. China did a whole ton of work against Japan, they fought the longest and hardest.

Also, without the Marshall Plan (of which the Soviets were fearful of and denied themselves participation), Europe would not be Europe right now. Maybe Russia wouldn't be an economic wasteland today, forcing their gangster gov't to use an invasion of a sovereign country to prop up their oligarchy.

The Nazis are the eternal scapegoats of the Western elite mania. This mania underwrites their irrational doctrine and propaganda that defines current international affairs. And they never consider the preceding circumstances which led to the Nazis coming to power. It’s incredibly vacuous and irresponsible.

Germany designed its current constitution specifically around the lessons it learned when the Nazis exploited the Weimar system. Every German high school student spends several months learning about the Nazi era, including the economic and geopolitical context. You literally can’t escape it.

Don’t worry about our level of education. We’re fine, thanks.

That’s your point of view, and that’s fine.

Mine doesn’t involve the United States at all. Try putting yourself in the shoes of a citizen of Europe who wants to live in peace, but feels their community is under attack by a nostalgic Russian dictator with an inferiority complex.

Not resisting and not getting involved is what my grandparents did when the Nazis were rising to power. I’m not going to make the same mistake.

This is crap.

9 Eastern European countries in the former Soviet sphere joined NATO and the EU and are currently going through one of their longest periods of growth and peace in their history.

There can be no long term prosperity with Russia.

They are being bled dry of everything the’ve got for the Western European elite. The benefits go to the upper classes while the working people suffer.

That's true. I know because I am from Bulgaria. We're vassals one way or another. Bled dry is correct. The entire eastern block was sold out for peanuts during the 90s. I guess that was the price for joining NATO and the EU

However, being US/EU vassals is better for us. I personally think that's mainly because the so called west has all the money in the world. That's the root cause. Not culture, values, etc. Those are all secondary to having money for so long.

While I understand the stated reasons for the invasion, and they are much more valid then America's struggle to steal as much resources as possible from all over the world under the guise of "democracy" and "WMDs", I fear we'll be next. I don't want to be under their boots. My family has suffered enough under the Soviets

It fucking sucks to be on the outskirts

You do know that Bulgaria, just like Romania, is crap at using EU development funds, right?

Your country could look like Austria by now if you wouldn't be so corrupt.

Look in the mirror first.

How do you explain Slovenia or Estonia or Poland with your world outlook?

I agree. Bulgaria was on the right track until 2009. It's almost as if different countries face different realities.

Corruption does not happen in a vacuum. Ultimately, the responsibility lies to those with power. What I am saying is geopolitics are not decided by the common person. You seem to disagree and that's fine

I think we're probably more aligned than you think :-)

I think society is a slow, lumbering beast that's hard to turn around, and very unpredictable.

I think that elites generally control things and the average person can't do much.

But if <<only>> elites control <<always>> things and only in <<their>> favor, then we can't explain how developed countries happened.

Long story short: the common person can't do much in general, but sometimes they can. Otherwise we can't explain stuff like Taiwan or South Korea or Estonia or Czechia or Slovenia or Ireland or whatever. So that means that the common person has a super low chance of changing anything, but that's their only hope. Giving up means that you have <<no>> chance, <<ever>>. And that's how you end up with Ukraine pre-2008 or Moldova pre-2014.

Yes, I agree with everything you said. Voting and protesting matter. Expression matters and is very important despite everything I said earlier. Otherwise everything would be even more alike than it is now. Your logic is sound.

Common people have a lot of power: if they unite.

See Solidarnosc in Poland for a great example.

It is a real pity because the same amount of money applied effectively instead of looted would have made Bulgaria the Switzerland of the East by now. I've visited your country and love it there - and love the people - but the road to go is a long one.

The thing is, it would actually save them from their population problems.

For example in Poland they managed to raise their economy enough that people just stopped leaving.

So even the demographic part is self inflicted. Corruption -> poverty -> people leaving the country.

That's true, the brain drain is going to be impossible to stop without giving people a credible future and for that to happen the corruption needs to stop.

Ever heard of EU development funds? Foreign investment?

The problem is local. Corruption.

And I'd take Western elites over Russian ones any day of the week. There are 0 (ZERO!) developed countries in the Russian sphere of influence.

Coming from ex-USSR... Western European elite is much much much better than Russian elite...