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Re:Times are great for programmers now. How does it end? by pdimitar on Monday February 21, 2022 @05:15AM (#30413971)
> It's the developer giving an analysis of the cost and benefit of a refactoring (it will take X time, but will save Y work in the future). And the manager factoring that into all the other circumstances, and deciding whether it's worth the current cost.

This has been the ideal theory for decades and I really wish people finally stopped to think for two minutes, look around, read some history and finally understand that it's not working.

Is it really so hard to accept this reality? I am periodically mind-boggled by the amazingly resilient illusion that you can plan things as tidily. It never happened, not once, in my 20 years of career.

Estimating these costs upfront is more or less impossible. It's usually a can of worms that opens other brand new and exciting sub-tasks, the same kind that gives managers nightmares.

IMO you might have projected a little bit and arguing against some imaginary "us the programmers are better than everyone else". Meh. Only kiddos think and say things like that. By and large, almost all experienced programmers I've ever met are quite moderate and humble.

Problem is, they are too moderate and humble which leads to predatory businessmen micro-managing them to oblivion. I've personally witnessed high-profile programmers firmly saying "No!", putting their foot down and making a thing their way with more time budget. Their project and code was used, almost untouched, for 10+ years afterwards -- it was that good.

Many of us are expert artisans. You don't go to a professional blacksmith giving him wisdom how can he accelerate a certain process.

Re:Times are great for programmers now. How does it end? by bob1029 on Monday February 21, 2022 @06:06AM (#30414359)
I think the key point for me is that once you control for all common human flaws, the developer is still far better suited to make an executive decision regarding a technology concern than anyone else on the team.

I recently made the mistake of deferring to the anxieties and fears of non-developers for so long that I almost forgot how we got to where we are today or what my true capabilities are.

You know exactly what those assholes are thinking when you say the word "refactor" or "iterate". It starts to become a psychological horror experience if you let it get out of control for too long.

Now don't get me wrong. At the end of the day I love and care for our customer too. I just don't let their minute-by-minute feature request stream live rent free in my head the same way the rest of the team does.

Re:Times are great for programmers now. How does it end? by pdimitar on Monday February 21, 2022 @06:56AM (#30414787)
> I recently made the mistake of deferring to the anxieties and fears of non-developers for so long that I almost forgot how we got to where we are today or what my true capabilities are.

Ouch, dude, you didn't have to stab me in the heart. But yeah, 100% same. I am just now, at the age of almost 42, starting to finally crawl out of that. I am ashamed that it took me most of my life and career but oh well.

> I think the key point for me is that once you control for all common human flaws, the developer is still far better suited to make an executive decision regarding a technology concern than anyone else on the team.

True, but then you get blamed for "not understanding business realities". I got super tired of being hinted that I "don't get it" or whatever, especially having in mind that I launched products whose launch date I was not consulted about, repeatedly, and still get treated like dirt. I started pushing back on micro-management, fiercely and sometimes rudely.

You know what's the funniest part? It works. People start looking at you very differently and suddenly negotiations are an option. I guess it was possible all along and the business people are like "push him, he's a tech nerd, he'll fold".

We should start getting aware how are others viewing us and integrate this knowledge into our negotiation strategy.

Re:Times are great for programmers now. How does it end? by redleader9345 on Monday February 21, 2022 @03:09PM (#30419973)
Pushing back, standing up for yourself, not being a doormat. All this is key to being treated with respect. The problem is that today, we've got a perfect storm. Developers do tend to be more naturally non-confrontational. Combine this with an abundance of opportunities, and developers will just leave rather than confront and push back.