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Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by ornornor on Monday February 21, 2022 @01:31AM (#30412528)
> privacy rights given to us by law (eg in the EU)

> As a EU citizen, i hope that our ineffectual administration at least tries to fight this somehow. Of course, there is little hope.

GDPR is thanks to the EU and I wouldn’t say it has no effect.

It seems like you’re contradicting yourself with these two paragraphs.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by chickenimprint on Monday February 21, 2022 @02:36AM (#30412901)
Is it safe to assume you've never had to deal with those downright malevolent dark patterns and button labyrinths, designed to make it extremely unlikely for anyone in the general population to actually reject tracking?
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by boudin on Monday February 21, 2022 @03:01AM (#30413071)
Don't blame the lawmaker for the bad behaviour of people who are trying to bypass it... If you're on such website, you know that the website itself shouldn't be trusted.
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by MrYellowP on Monday February 21, 2022 @06:48AM (#30414721)
Yes, absolutely blame the lawmaker for making laws which are completely detached from how people operate. Yes, absolutely, blame lawmakers for making laws that don't actually fit reality.

Yes.

Absolutely.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by mlatu on Monday February 21, 2022 @03:16AM (#30413161)
the laws are teethless if they are not enforced, and playing hot potatoe with responsibilities like is the case with Max Schrems makes it all laughable.

dont blame the lawmaker for participants bad behaviour?

well, ok. allright.

but i DO blame the responsible authorities for licking the misbehaving participants' boots

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by krageon on Monday February 21, 2022 @04:37AM (#30413696)
> if they are not enforced

Ok, but they are enforced. So this entire line of reasoning makes absolutely zero sense. If your demand is that every infraction is enforced immediately, then you will be disappointed. Such things take time.

> i DO blame the responsible authorities for licking the misbehaving participants' boots

There's a single European country that does this (Ireland) and it is definitely a stain on an otherwise healthy situation in terms of enforcement. It is not fair to attribute their willful ignorance in the face of plain bribing to the rest of the enforcement agencies.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by dbrgn on Monday February 21, 2022 @03:34AM (#30413268)
Enforcing requires court cases and time. That's how law works, unfortunately.

Fortunately organizations like NOYB (with Max Schrems) are doing exactly this: https://noyb.eu/en/noyb-files-422-formal-gdpr-complaints-ner... Once there are a few high-profile cases with high fines to set a precedent, this hopefully changes the way companies handle cookie banners.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by fsflover on Monday February 21, 2022 @04:48AM (#30413768)
> the laws are teethless if they are not enforced

https://www.enforcementtracker.com/

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by the_other on Monday February 21, 2022 @04:17AM (#30413557)
> the laws are teethless if they are not enforced

How many sites have you reported?

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by simongray on Monday February 21, 2022 @02:46AM (#30412982)
There are solutions to most of that, e.g. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/consent-o-matic/md...
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by KronisLV on Monday February 21, 2022 @02:56AM (#30413041)
Those are (nice) solutions to a problem that shouldn't be allowed to (legally) exist. The industry shouldn't be allowed to play clever with the ways to coerce their users into giving up their information just because they know that most of those users are not interested in navigating difficult dialogs.
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by black_puppydog on Monday February 21, 2022 @03:22AM (#30413194)
They shouldn't be allowed, and they aren't allowed. Actually the new digital services act [0] is shaping up to clarify these, but IIRC there have also been first cases decided in courts.

[0]: https://edri.org/our-work/the-eu-parliament-takes-strong-sta...

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by friendzis on Monday February 21, 2022 @05:54AM (#30414275)
This particular behavior is actually illegal. GDPR [Recital 32] clearly states that "Consent should be given by a clear affirmative act <...> Silence, pre-ticked boxes or inactivity should not therefore constitute consent."

[Recital 32]: https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-32/

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by danuker on Monday February 21, 2022 @02:54AM (#30413033)
This is more of a workaround.

A solution to a poliical problem is political, not technical.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by mlatu on Monday February 21, 2022 @03:17AM (#30413173)
i would call it societal; society still needs to grasp in what way they are being exploited. it's still not clear to most people
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by emsixteen on Monday February 21, 2022 @05:07AM (#30413907)
How is it political?
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by danuker on Monday February 21, 2022 @10:08AM (#30416647)
The decision to force service providers collect consent from their own users is a political decision.

And a fundamentally bad one: providers' incentive is to make it easy to get consent and hard to refuse.

I don't know what policy is better than this, but right now, we only get more annoyance without any benefits in privacy. Pretty much every page I've visited issues 3rd party requests before I consent to data sharing.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by formerly_proven on Monday February 21, 2022 @04:56AM (#30413823)
I some cases the "people do illegal things regardless" argument can hold some water, but that's not the case for the GDPR, which is worded very clearly and hence it's really obvious that this kind of thing violates it.

Most of these banners violate the GDPR even before they're showing up, because the GDPR actually restricts your ability to embed non-first-party content without consent. That's why Google Fonts violates the GDPR, for example. Arguably every vanilla Wordpress install violates the GDPR because Wordpress embeds something from s.w.org on every page (presumably for install count / analytics reasons).

This kinda sounds like a bad thing but it's not. It's actually a huge boon, because it's an excellent legal excuse to get rid of embedding stuff from 213789 origins and CDNs, which only has negative performance effects since caches have been origin-segregated for years, meaning that even if another page uses the same jQuery version from cdnjs, it will be downloaded again anyway.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by shadowgovt on Monday February 21, 2022 @06:15AM (#30414439)
> which is worded very clearly

Hard disagree. I've been racking my brain as of late trying to decide if default apache access logs violate the GDPR, and stackexchange searches on the topic seem to confirm the confusion.

If the legality of data collection hinges on what is considered necessary for service maintenance in the eye of a judge, the law is not clear.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by formerly_proven on Monday February 21, 2022 @06:25AM (#30414514)
You can keep such logs under article 6.1.f if the retention period is 30 days or less (causing self-fulfillment of article 17) or indefinitely if you remove/anonymize PII from them. Of course article 17.3 gives you an exemption for various purposes, e.g. if you had a breach you don't need to delete the logs from that period while investigating it.
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by shadowgovt on Monday February 21, 2022 @06:49AM (#30414734)
I fail to see how a 30-day or fewer retention policy impinges on article 17 one way or the other, nor do I see how article 6.1 gives any protection on the topic of the default Apache HTTP access logs (which include IP addresses).
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by ohgodplsno on Monday February 21, 2022 @02:50AM (#30413010)
Those patterns are more and more being punished by GDPR enforcement. Companies may try playing around the letter of the law, but Europe runs pretty solidly on the spirit of the law. See events like these: https://www.iccl.ie/news/gdpr-enforcer-rules-that-iab-europe...
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by zxcvbn4038 on Monday February 21, 2022 @04:02AM (#30413462)
And American companies are absolutely dumbfounded when they try to play the “misplaced comma” card in the EU and they still get slapped down. It is a very American attitude — I always wondered what ST:TNG would have been like if Picard wasn’t always able to save the day by invoking some obscure sub paragraph of some obscure treaty. Note to Elon that if he launches lawyers into space it doesn’t kill them, he just ends up with a lot of lawyers in space.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ensigns_of_Command

The other aspect of EU law that always gets US companies is that penalties are large enough to actually be penalizing. In the US companies can basically ignore the law until they get caught, pay a token $100,000 or $1,000,000 fine (which sounds impressive in all the papers), then invent a new interpretation of the law and go do it again. In the EU the regulators start looking at percentages of income during the entire time the illegal activity occurred, so again the US companies are caught completely off guard when they get asked to forfeit billions of dollars.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by dtech on Monday February 21, 2022 @03:48AM (#30413374)
So what do you propose: "People are working around it so we should just give up"? I don't think it's time to admit defeat like that.

This can change, but enforcement and courts by nature are slow. With EU courts striking down asymptotic consent banners as illegal, sites are spooked, and you now see sites adding a "reject all" button next to the "accept all". I still have hope we get there.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by carlhjerpe on Monday February 21, 2022 @05:11AM (#30413931)
Some reject all buttons don't set a cookie/localstorage for the rejection meaning the banner will be on every page, darkest of patterns!
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by efdee on Monday February 21, 2022 @07:23AM (#30415063)
In my experience, almost all of those consent popups work the same way. On the first popup, press the button that doesn't say they can just use all cookies. On the second popup, press the button that says it saves your preferences.
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by ornornor on Monday February 21, 2022 @02:53AM (#30413025)
Couldn’t be further from reality.
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by CommanderData on Monday February 21, 2022 @01:49AM (#30412621)
GDPR has been a massive win for user/consumer rights. Its a piece of legislation law makers in the US are trying to mimic.

Surprisingly the UK are trying to rid or weaken GDPR significantly after brexit.

The only way to fix this problem now is through strong legislation.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by kkjjkgjjgg on Monday February 21, 2022 @03:23AM (#30413200)
Did it really make the world a better place? Most sites collect as much data as ever, but now we need many more clicks, and can't have nice things like photos from kindergarden parties anymore.
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by GreenWatermelon on Monday February 21, 2022 @04:20AM (#30413585)
I'm less likely to use a site that offers obnoxious cookie consent forms, and I think I'm better off without them. so yeah, it made the world better for me.

My anger is directed towards the criminal websites that seek to circumvent the spirit of the law (most if the web today)

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by shadowgovt on Monday February 21, 2022 @06:19AM (#30414475)
To my observation, there are no sites with more than a dram of content on them that haven't been compelled by GDPR compliance to put an obnoxious cookie banner up.

If you've found some, please share.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by denton-scratch on Monday February 21, 2022 @07:14AM (#30414967)
If you need to set a cookie for the correct operation of your site, then you don't need a cookie banner. The banners are a middle-finger to the GDPR.
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by shadowgovt on Monday February 21, 2022 @09:38AM (#30416329)
... but "correct operation of your site" is in the eye of a judge and can't be evaluated before someone brings suit, so "better safe than sorry" behavior (at the cost of user time) is completely predictable.

... It's not even clear that it's safe to log IP addresses in the style of a default Apache configuration on a static website without user consent.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by denton-scratch on Monday February 21, 2022 @05:34PM (#30421612)
> completely predictable

It's completely predictable that there are people who don't want to comply. Collecting personal information is a lucrative business.

Re. Website logs: in fact it's perfectly clear that a website log retained for the purposes of site management is fine. It's on the face of the regulation.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by shadowgovt on Monday February 21, 2022 @06:20PM (#30422053)
> It's on the face of the regulation.

Right, collection for the purpose of running the site and all that. But does that mean "I run my site without having ever configured apache's HTTP access logs off the default, but I never read the logs" is fine? Because that sounds like collecting more PII (in the form of stored IP addresses) than is strictly needed to run the site. https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/42438/do-default-apa...

... and that's the problem and the reason that it's probably wise for even site administrators who aren't doing advertising-related data collection to pop the banner. Because the answer to that question is on the other side of a judge's ruling after a very expensive lawsuit. Better safe than sorry.

The law, as written, has entirely too many "The resolution of that ambiguity is on the other side of a judge's ruling after a very expensive lawsuit" for people to have not predicted a million banners. The defaults of the most ancient tools we use to host websites are, under the GDPR, ambiguously compliant.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by denton-scratch on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @12:22PM (#30430656)
> But does that mean "I run my site without having ever configured apache's HTTP access logs off the default, but I never read the logs" is fine?

Frankly, I don't think someone with that attitude should administer a server that's connected to the internet.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by shadowgovt on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @03:36PM (#30433362)
Fair, but I'd wager that's the average case for small blogs and personal sites... That most administrators of such sites don't read their access logs until there's a problem.

At least, every small blog and personal site that hasn't just given their content to one of the FAANGs already to do those jobs for them (which will, of course, "solve" these problems by throwing a cookie-consent banner and hooking the content up to their view-tracker of choice).

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by denton-scratch on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @10:34AM (#30429174)
> probably wise for even site administrators who aren't doing advertising-related data collection to pop the banner.

I disagree.

As far as I can see, GDPR enforcement is not heavy-handed. You get a warning before any attempt at enforcement; then you get a modest "warning" fine.

Also, I'm not aware that the silly cookie banners provide any protection against GDPR enforcement; it's how you handle the data that matters, not a two-liner banner offering [OK] [Later] buttons.

If you want to "be on the safe side", handling data correctly will help; cookie banners won't.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by shadowgovt on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @11:22AM (#30429760)
Handling data correctly may not be feasible, especially for smaller users on shared-hosting solutions.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30402052

... and again, the problem is "correctly" is in the eye of a judge after an alleged violation has occurred.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by denton-scratch on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @11:41AM (#30430033)
The point is: the regulator simply can't prosecute every website, even if he wanted to. The regulator's goal is to achieve compliance. Accordingly, the regulator will first warn you that your site appears to be non-compliant. He will advise you on steps to be taken to come into compliance.

Regarding Apache logs, a default install of logrotate will probably bring you into compliance (not sure, haven't looked into it lately). Scrubbing IP addresses from Apache logs defeats the purpose of the logs; you need to know what IP addresses are attacking your server.

To reach the stage of a modest fine, you will have to ignore that warning and advice, effectively saying "So fine me, regulator!" And if your violation isn't egregious, you'll be a long way down the list of forthcoming legal actions.

Basically, making a reasonable effort to understand GDPR and come into compliance is probably both a protection against action, and a defence against conviction.

It's not hard to comply with the GDPR, unless you are running a business that depends on violating GDPR.

IANAL.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by M2Ys4U on Monday February 21, 2022 @04:52AM (#30413798)
The GDPR applies to everything outside of purely personal/household activities - it's not limited to websites.
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by kkjjkgjjgg on Monday February 21, 2022 @05:34AM (#30414138)
Yes, hence the issue with photographs of events of our children.

I'm not convinced yet it is a net positive. For sure it increased senseless bureaucracy by a huge margin (not just the clicks on web sites, it creates more work in other places, too).

The real players collect just as much data as before, but private people can't do most basic things anymore.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by ImPostingOnHN on Monday February 21, 2022 @06:18AM (#30414466)
I'm not convinced yet that it isn't a net positive, given that a lot of what you described is illegal according to it, and said illegal behavior is being punished
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by kkjjkgjjgg on Monday February 21, 2022 @07:35AM (#30415173)
"a lot of what I describe" - you mean big players collecting even more data? Not really illegal, you just have to get the users to consent somehow. Which most do anyway.
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by ImPostingOnHN on Monday February 21, 2022 @01:52PM (#30419273)
> you mean big players collecting even more data?

No.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by kkjjkgjjgg on Monday February 21, 2022 @03:10PM (#30419981)
So taking photographs of your children's life's events? Or what are you referring to?
Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by wjnc on Monday February 21, 2022 @02:58AM (#30413059)
Do we really need more or new legislation if there is still ample room for improvement on the enforcement side of GDPR. Just a not so far stretch: all or most of the GDPR supervisors now think Google Analytics is a no-go. Publish this and an intention to fine say 2% of revenue, set an expiration date six months ahead and do a EU-tender for a scraping facility finding all users of Google Analytics. Then in six months, re-scrape and send out the fines. Rinse and repeat.

Google Tag Manager could be declared illegal on the outset, with a 5 to 10% fine for Google if they continue to offer it in the EU. Do a top-down assessment of the usage of Google Tag Manager in the largest e-commerce users in Europe. Fine them as well. At the end of the day privacy enforcement could easily pay for itself.

(Edit: After typing this I think you were writing from a US perspective. I think GDPR is a big win as well, but enforcement is feeble ;)

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by mlatu on Monday February 21, 2022 @03:22AM (#30413196)
US law makers are trying to mimic GDPR?

are you certain? would be certainly nice, but i dont believe there is a majority in the US that would support such a change. I mean there are probably more individual people interested in doing that than not, but I bet in comparison there are more individual $$$ being invested in keeping data privacy laws as lax as possible

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by kristofferR on Monday February 21, 2022 @06:37AM (#30414611)
> Surprisingly the UK are trying to rid or weaken GDPR significantly after brexit.

Isn't that the whole point of brexit - to get rid of various EU customer protection laws and regulations?

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by MrYellowP on Monday February 21, 2022 @06:47AM (#30414713)
You think the GDPR is a good idea? Wow, mate, that's quite the detachment from reality.

In reality, GDPR is pure nonsense. It's a serious burden for anyone putting up a site. Any site. They all have cookies. All of them. It is so bad, there are now services taking care of this, because it's so much of a bullshit that people need to rely on others to get it right.

You'll probably spin this as a net win, right? Because more businesses, right? Right??

The odds of 99% of the people not simply clicking "accept all" are slim to none and anyone insisting otherwise would make himself look like a moron. It's like you're assuming the masses out there are actually thinking about things.

They don't! It's not how people work! They just click it away and are done with it, because it's super fucking annoying to constantly click that bullshit away and it does literally nothing for us people, no matter how much anyone would want to insist that it does, theoretically, do benefit us.

The GDPR is pure nonsense. It is not made for the people. It in fact completely ignores how people operate.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by sunaurus on Monday February 21, 2022 @07:03AM (#30414859)
It seems you're not fully clear on what GDPR is. You could check this page for more info: https://gdpr.eu/what-is-gdpr/

Just as a very brief note: it's not really about cookies, it's more about how companies should store data about people and what kind of rights people have concerning that data.

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by MrYellowP on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:55AM (#30465508)
AND NOBODY FUCKING CARES! THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT!

ALL IT IS

IS AN ANNOYING WINDOW

WHICH HAS TO BE CLICKED AWAY!

That's what I mean by "detached from reality." For you it's something glorified, but the vast majority of humanity do not give a flying fuck and just think it's annoying.

You think this is good!

It's not!

You're just so deep in that bubble, you don't fucking recognize that your bubble isn't actual reality!

Re:Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020) by sunaurus on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:02AM (#30465548)
Again, go ahead and read the link I posted. You're talking about cookie consent pop-ups, those are not what the GDPR is about at all. Putting a cookie consent pop-up on your website does not make you compliant with the GDPR.

The GDPR is about protecting personal information of EU citizens, giving them rights to demand access to data that is held about them, and giving them rights to request deletion of any personal data that is held about them.

To be super clear, I'm not saying that cookie consent pop-ups are good - I also think they're not really serving any real purpose. But this fact has very little to do with the GDPR!