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Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by twblalock on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:51PM (#30338132)
A better CEO would not be cheaper, particularly considering that whoever takes the job would be tasked with saving a dying product.

High salary and a golden parachute would be required to attract anyone good enough to succeed.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by autoexec on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:23PM (#30338552)
> High salary and a golden parachute would be required to attract anyone good enough to succeed.

I'm not sure if the best way to get someone to save a dying product is a golden parachute which rewards them for running it straight into the ground. You have to make sure they're not risking everything to keep Firefox going, but ideally they'd have some skin in the game so they don't have an incentive to just loot whatever they can until it dies before sailing away from the burning wreak with even more money.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by twblalock on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:28PM (#30338593)
It's not a reward for failure, it's an insurance policy.

Here's a CEO job offer: take on a nearly impossible task, for a salary that is far below the market rate. If you fail (and you probably will!) it might damage your career and make it harder for you to find another job. If you succeed, you will get prestige, but you still won't get a lot of money.

What kind of executive would accept an offer like that?

A golden parachute is the insurance policy: it says to the candidate, we know this is a nearly impossible task, and it might damage your career if you fail, so we will guarantee you some money if you fail in order to compensate you for taking on that risk.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by stormbrew on Monday February 14, 2022 @05:36PM (#30339376)
I would really love to hear even one example of a CEO's career being damaged by failure in any material way.

Meanwhile, people for whom income is literally making the difference between getting food on the table and not get 2 weeks at best, often nothing at all.

I mean, I'm actually sympathetic to the idea that no one should take a job unless it has absolutely zero risk of ruining them financially if they fail at it, but it's pretty clear that this is a benefit only extended to very few people who don't really need it.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by staticassertion on Monday February 14, 2022 @09:13PM (#30341762)
> Here's a CEO job offer: take on a nearly impossible task, for a salary that is far below the market rate. If you fail (and you probably will!) it might damage your career and make it harder for you to find another job. If you succeed, you will get prestige, but you still won't get a lot of money.

Keeping in mind that "below market rate" is still "retirement within a few years at the Mozilla CEO's rate.

So even if your career were damaged, and it's easy to not have it damaged, you can retire after like 3 years. That's a fine insurance policy.

> If you succeed, you will get prestige, but you still won't get a lot of money.

Of course you'll get a lot of money.

1. You can give yourself a raise. If the Moz CEO had come in and we saw market share increasing do you think anyone would give a shit about increasing their pay? The issue is it's tanking and they laid off a ton of people at the same time they took a huge pay raise.

2. Executives are compensated with stock. Company does well, your stock goes up.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by twblalock on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @02:32AM (#30343756)
Stock in what? There is no Mozilla stock.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by staticassertion on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:03AM (#30346526)
That's true, Mozilla Corporation is a non profit, so there is no stock. Still, you could compensate based on company performance.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by jacquesm on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:30PM (#30338622)
You don't want that kind of executive anyway. You want someone that identifies with the market and is seen as a safe hand to run FF into the long term future. That alone will do a good part of stopping the drain.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by mschuster91 on Monday February 14, 2022 @06:38PM (#30340165)
At the position FF/Mozilla is in, even finding such a person is a challenge:

Ideally, FF would need a developer or another seasoned IT person at the helm, but let's be real most of our profession find management borderline disgusting at best.

The MBA/beancounter/finance-type execs have no fucking idea about the business or the spirit behind a project like FF, all they care about is financial numbers - and the ones you might want from that group can earn ten times the compensation outside of the NGO sector.

And the NGO execs... most of them have absolutely no experience leading a project as large and international as FF and the ones that do (e.g. Greenpeace) don't have any idea about technology either.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by account42 on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @06:37AM (#30345235)
> What kind of executive would accept an offer like that?

One that cares about Firefox more than about making insane amounts of money that are so far past what you need to live a comfortable live.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by mrtranscendence on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @11:16AM (#30348437)
As stated, the offer is for a job that's almost sure to fail and will damage the taker's career if it does. Combine that with undermarket pay and it's definitely a tough ask, even if you restrict yourself to those who feel strongly about Firefox's mission. If you buy into the notion that an effective CEO has a particular, rare set of skills in business strategy and people management, then your job gets even tougher.

Most people cheered when Pat Gelsinger came back to Intel and I bet he even believes in Intel's mission, but he likely wouldn't have accepted an 80% pay cut relative to other industry CEOs. And Intel's prospects are infinitely better than Mozilla's.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by freeopinion on Monday February 14, 2022 @05:14PM (#30339136)
I think Mozilla and Firefox are cherished by a lot of people who would like to see them thrive.

But I think if given a choice, most of those people would prioritize the survival of a viable competitive web browser. The name of the product and the sponsor of the product are less important.

So a related question might be, "What would it take for a Firefox fork to succeed?"

If you think the CEO of Mozilla is a cancer, a fork solves that issue. Obviously, there are a lot more concerns than just the CEO. So, what else would a viable fork need?

In the end, Mozilla could implement any measures that would work for the fork, and probably do so easier. So answer the question for the fork, and you've answered the question for Mozilla.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by StillBored on Monday February 14, 2022 @05:28PM (#30339274)
Well a large part of the problem with a fork is that you don't see a lot of random drive by contributions. As a possible contributor myself a couple times, firefox is a development nightmare because it doesn't have a good autoconfig system that lets one download the code and start being productive quickly.

Then like chrome, i'm betting most people can't actually built it in reasonable time on their laptops since it burns a good 64 core machine with 128G of ram for a hour or two. Screw up said configuration, and your in for another rebuild loop. It can take days just to get a working development environment.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by freeopinion on Monday February 14, 2022 @05:44PM (#30339452)
And these are what is holding Firefox back?
Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by StillBored on Monday February 14, 2022 @06:24PM (#30339976)
No, that is one the problems you have to solve before you can have a successful fork unless you happen to have a few million a year coming in to compete with the main branch.

I've been known to waste a weekend or two a year working on open source projects. These though generally are small things that scratch and itch for fix a bug. I don't work on projects where it takes a month+ of weekends just to get a working dev environment. I don't think that's unusual, you have to pay people to put up with that kind of pain.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by stjohnswarts on Monday February 14, 2022 @06:13PM (#30339801)
A fork in no way solves this because you can't for the devs who mozilla is paying. Firefox is a huge project requiring devs with lots of experience in the technology who also like to be compensated. You can't fork firefox, you have to change the leadership or nothing else will change.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by freeopinion on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:14PM (#30340598)
Sure. Bullet point #1: Funding.

Next?

Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by account42 on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @06:47AM (#30345290)
It's related to funding, but recognition is really important. Actually forking (as opposed to the GitHub fork button) is generally seen to be hostile and and will split the community (see e.g. ffmpeg vs. libav). This means that getting a fork to succeed is much harder than it would have been for the original project. For example if the Mozilla foundation went after government grants and donations for funding Firefox instead of trying to monetize the browser they'd probably have much more success than any unproven fork could ever dream for.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by pstuart on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:56PM (#30338199)
Really? This isn't GM -- it's a web browser. An important one, but even a paltry $1M should be enough to draw in the right talent.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by twblalock on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:04PM (#30338336)
$1m is senior engineering manager compensation in the valley at several companies just a short drive away from Mozilla’s offices. It’s far below CEO compensation.

Anyone who is capable of succeeding as the CEO of Mozilla would be giving up millions of dollars they could easily make elsewhere in the valley if they took only $1m as their comp.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by selfhoster11 on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:53PM (#30338911)
So? Not the entire world is US-based. Tech salaries in USD are way out of whack compared to elsewhere.

I also bet that for the type of challenges facing Firefox and with my proposed reforms, a motivated senior engineer who knows what they are doing would be just as good or better compared to a standard CEO.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by appleiigs on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:31PM (#30338650)
No, it's not binary as you make it out be.

There is a wide spectrum of CEOs skills and compensation. A SVP, VP, or even director level person at Apple (and the like) could be CEO of Mozilla (and would be happy to take a CEO title and steer their own ship).

I'd bet there are couple internal people at Mozilla that could be promoted to CEO and be happy with CEO pay and be successful too.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by Dylan16807 on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:35PM (#30338708)
"Capable of succeeding" meaning what? If you switch to a normal manager and suddenly save the company 2 million a year, and they stop making the current trend of decisions, that sounds like a win-win. CEOs aren't magical rarities.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by freeopinion on Monday February 14, 2022 @05:20PM (#30339184)
Sounds perfect. Any up and coming CEO wannabe could take the Mozilla job to prove they've got the chops. Then, after turning things around, they could ride off into the sunset at any of those other corps. Everybody wins.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by account42 on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @06:54AM (#30345309)
> in the valley at several companies just a short drive away from Mozilla’s offices

Does Mozilla need to be "in the valley"?

Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by ilrwbwrkhv on Monday February 14, 2022 @05:27PM (#30339261)
which companies are paying 1m to managers?
Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by twblalock on Monday February 14, 2022 @06:08PM (#30339719)
FAANGs, as salary plus RSU.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by nus07 on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:59PM (#30338255)
Someone visionary and humble like Sundar or Satya might work. Preferably an engineer or engineer-minded rather than a lawyer or MBA.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by twblalock on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:06PM (#30338356)
How much money do you think a Sundar or Satya-type person would be willing to accept? Certainly not as little as the current Mozilla CEO is being paid!
Re:Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would y... by Croftengea on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:34PM (#30338692)
One doesn't have to look too far. Bring Jamie back! :)