As much as I'm not a fan of FB re all the privacy stuff (not to mention a history of horribly under/wrongly-documented and semi-broken APIs), it's done wonders for a large generation of web users in terms of allowing them to easily (and consistently) share their lives with a lot of their friends and family. I see that aspect as a good thing.

I'm not for or against FB; it's not my cup of tea, but I might not be like the typical user. What I don't understand is the 'forced to use facebook' meme that comes up every time someone is unhappy with some changes there.

If I wanted to share a picture with 12 people, I had to send 12 emails, or CC 12 people, or BCC them because they didn't want their emails shared with people they didn't know.

Not everyone understood IM, and not everyone was on at the same time.

The bigger question would be why more people didn't latch on to friendster or myspace before facebook. It's as much a social trend as much as a technical one. As computers got cheaper and more people got net connections (or faster ones), there was more of a need/demand for sharing info. Facebook hit at the right time to capitalize on network effects amongst 'regular' folk.

Unless your friends are conveying intellectual stimulation that stands on its own, you're just reminiscing and should probably just some make new friends and call your mom now and then.

I have no idea on how you live, how old you are and who you keep as company, but I think you're going to be in the minority or already are) soon enough. It's a social organizer that everyone has opted into which means breaking from it makes it infinitely harder to remain social.

There's some merit in your argument. I've argued elsewhere that 500,000 daily Android activations means that the kids growing up now form their first impression of a "computer" to mean "smartphone" and not a desktop. This world-view is totally different, and as people who create products, we have to stop and think, are the things we are doing now relavent in an age where "computer = smartphone"?

Applying this with Facebook, we have kids growing up and learning how to socialize through Facebook. It suggests that that, unless I dive deep into Facebook, I will remain on the other side of this generation gap. As a product creator, I would make products suited for the older generation -- already obsolete. It extends outside of making products. We've already seen policy makers make bone-headed moves, attempting to restrict internet access for its citizens. That's like grounding a teenager from using Facebook. Grounding a teenager and making sure they can't use Facebook? Really?

However, on deeper reflection, this points to a huge flaw. It comes back to, "let's do this because everyone else is doing it."

I've written about this as an answer on Quora. We used to have rites of passage conducted by elders and parents. Now these rites of passage form from peer interaction. That's not such a good thing.

http://www.quora.com/Teenagers-Teenage-Years/My-classmates-s...

So yes. Stepping away from Facebook means missing out on being social. Something that's broken right now. Hmmm.

It might be sad or disappointing in your mind that people behave like this, but that's not a flaw in the logic of the behavior, just an opinion on how people tend to behave.

I'm talking about a generation of kids growing up with technology. This isn't about the value of the network increasing as people use it. It's about a fundamental shift in one's worldview by encountering the technology during formative years. I'm basing much of this on Clotaire Rapaille's work, as described in his book, The Culture Code (http://www.amazon.com/Culture-Code-Ingenious-Understand-Peop...).

Rapaille conducted a study for Nestle. Nestle wanted to open up the Japanese market for hot chocolate. Using his research methods, Rapaille found that adult Japanese never formed early childhood impressions of chocolate, and so introducing chocolate products to Japan would fail miserably. As a result of the study, Nestle shifted its marketing strategy towards introducing chocolate to Japanese children, with the idea that twenty years down the road, they can sell chocolate products when they become adults.

Half a million daily Android activations means that a generation of children grows up encountering a personal computer in the form factor of a smartphone. Having come from the older generation, I still picture a desktop computer in my mind when I see the word "computer", despite working primarily with web technologies and cloud servers. To make sure my products do not become obsolete, I have to step into the shoes of someone who grew up picturing "smartphone" when someone says "computer". It means that any web/cloud application I make must be delivered on a smartphone first, with the desktop experience being an after-thought. I can live with that. That will mean twenty years from now, software development will mean keyboard-less IDEs, but I can still live with that.

I apply the same frame to these Facebook announcement. What is it like growing up where your first impressions of social dynamics is Facebook? I can separate my online identity because I entered my teenage years in the era of text-based MUDs and email. I had access to the internet when most of my friends do not know what it is. I could and did interact with adults. But a pre-teen or a teenager growing up now, knows that you can't separate the social identity like that. What, are you crazy?

What would a society with the unexamined assumption of "Facebook = Social" look like? One that accelerates the general trend for the past several generation: further isolation from the deep wisdom of previous generations; rites of passages conducted by clueless peers that end up in tragedy; a new life stage to describe young adults in their 20s to describe an extended childhood, much the way "teenage" was invented to describe the emergence of an extended childhood.

I do not like what I see in this thought-experiment. So while I might embrace the future when it comes with mobile devices, to this ... travesty ... called Facebook = Social, I say, "bah humbug."

(And next thing you know, I'll be walking out my front door with a cane, shaking a fist, "Dang kids! Get off my lawn!")

I will skip the computer/phone stuff, I don't really think we have an disagreement about changing consumer behaviors.

Facebook=Social, your conclusions are a bit different than what I perceive. Further isolation from the deep wisdom of previous generations is not the conclusion I would necessarily make. To me it seems they could actually be the most connected to older generations simply because they are sharing a social space (facebook) with them. Sure, not everyone is going to be friends with older generations, but the opportunity is greater, the barrier for communication is lower and older generations are watching them closer than before.

Each generation has to go through its own unique rite of passage given cultural, technological and social standards of the time. I think they'll figure it out and make it work, somehow that always seems to happen.

You make an excellant point here. I have not seen examples in the wild of the kind of "deep wisdom" being shared across the Internet by private family groups, but that doesn't mean it does not exist. However, I know certain wisdom cannot pass on through the internet, can only pass on by face-to-face. They are typically transmitted through body language, physical motion, and sheer charismatic presence.

"Each generation has to go through its own unique rite of passage given cultural, technological and social standards of the time. I think they'll figure it out and make it work, somehow that always seems to happen."

This has been true only within the past several generation, and only due to Moore's Law. In other words, this uniqueness for each generation is an aberration.

Tribal wisdom used to be told through folklore, myths and initiations. These days, in the mainstream and in geek subculture, we use the word "myth" to mean "superstitious", and "something to dismiss" in contrast to "facts." The surviving stories appear in the better science fiction and fantasy novels and pop-culture TV shows. Comics. Anime. Some movies. A tiny handful of video games. Often tainted by consumer lifestyle values.

An example of what I mean, that's meta enough to discuss this within the story: Neal Stephenson's Diamond Age

It comes back to what I wrote in that Quora answer. Today, peers, not elders, conduct modern rites of passages. Elders today cannot keep up with Moore's Law, so peers conduct them. You end up losing things that still remain true, generation to generation regardless of technological changes (hence, "deep" wisdom), and you learn them from your clueless peers.

I actually thought about this point when I wrote my response, that perhaps it may be limited to the past hundred or two hundred years. However, I am not sure if that's the case or not, I don't know enough history/sociology to make any sort of qualified statement on the subject. The pace at which technological change is happening has certainly increased since the industrial revolution, and I presume that has been a major driver of cultural change as well.

I am still not really sure what you mean by learning form clueless peers. It isn't as if all the elders in a society disappeared - most children still go to school, have parents, get jobs, are exposed to role model figures. In fact what do you think of most western countries where population is actually getting older and there is a lack of young people?

I assume you mean, "cannot be passed along Facebook, or other Internet-like communications network".

Mindfulness is one example. It's difficult to convey over the internet, and still challenging in person. It's the kind of skill that requires someone present to point out when you're being mindful and when you become distracted. You can't force someone else to be mindful. Hell, you can't force yourself to be mindful. Many stories disguise lessons of mindfulness.

Fear and dealing with fear is the biggest example. All fear roots back to existential fear. Some (not all) older people have a peculiar attitude because they see their own demise coming, accept it, and live on. The TV show, Breaking Bad is a great example, a man who saw the end of his existence, stripped away all the BS and decided to leave behind a legacy.

However, it's one thing to watch characters on the screen deal with fear, and quite another to deal with your own. The mind plays many tricks to comfortably avoid fear. Another person in the same room witnessing your discomfort has significant impact; if they are able to mindfully witness and convey a sense of safety, such interaction helps you gain insight about your fear, and possibly change habits and actions resulting from that.

"The pace at which technological change is happening has certainly increased since the industrial revolution, and I presume that has been a major driver of cultural change as well."

Though off-topic, you might find this interesting: http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2011/06/08/a-brief-history-of-the-...

Venkat's blog post led me to a book, Lever of Riches ... which I think has a lot of useful insights yet seriously flawed. But, it is interesting as a survey of technological history and look at changes within culture as well. I did not know, for example, that clockwork mechanisms reached high art before the invention of moveable type. These clockwork mechanisms directly paved the way for industrialization, and accounts for the obsession some cultures have for gadgets and gadget making.

I've also asked this series of questions on Quora. Perhaps you might have some insights:

"How has the invention of moveable type accelerated the tempo of invention and innovation?" ( http://www.quora.com/How-has-the-invention-of-moveable-type-... )

"How has Open Source accelerated the tempo of software innovation?" ( http://www.quora.com/How-has-Open-Source-accelerated-the-tem... )

"How has Github accelerated the tempo of software innovation?" ( http://www.quora.com/How-has-Github-accelerated-the-tempo-of... )

"How does the tempo of innovation within Github differ from that of a geographic technology hub such as Silicon Valley?" ( http://www.quora.com/How-does-the-tempo-of-innovation-within... )

"In fact what do you think of most western countries where population is actually getting older and there is a lack of young people?"

I have not studied up on Western cultures as much as I did American and East Asian cultures. I'll think about this.

As a distraction, I offer this story. Japan has a cultural value in which the elders (now mostly from the WWII generation) believe that they can and should sacrifice themselves for the future generation, the children. It's a sort of a, strange mix of bushi and Confucian values. Another interesting thing: the Japanese Shinto values of spirit ex machina leads to a great obsession with robots and androids ... and exoskeletons to help the rice farmers continue growing rice. Because many of the younger generation do not want to farm. There's big problems with social recluses.

Yet, I have also read reports of the attitudes of the generation just now entering ... post-high school. Unlike their older siblings (about half a generation older), they ... don't quite outright reject their boomer parents workoholic attitude, yet don't seem to run and hide away in a closet. I look forward to the stories coming out of this generation. Maybe I'm wrong about "rites of passage conducted by clueless peers" after all.

The blog post was very long and I think he missed some of the major historical points (especially about finance). You should checkout The Ascent of Money for a good history of corporations and the financial innovations that made them possible. It would argue spain/portugal didn't become irrelevant because they weren't as good, it was almost because they were too successful. The flood of physical wealth prevented financial innovation which allowed the dutch and brits to get ahead.

Japan is especially fascinating to me (I am half Japanese) and the culture is very bizarre in a lot of ways. It's probably one of the most (if not the most) homogeneous society on earth. I do wonder what the effects of that are on determining people's beliefs and behaviors. For instance, would the willingness to sacrifice and contribute to the greater good be diminished in a less homogeneous society? The recluses, while a problem, I am not sure what percent they ever actually made up. There is a lot of social problems in Japan for so many different economics, political, cultural reasons. However, I do wonder how much they were blown out of proportion in the media as a scare versus a real threat to the very fabric of society. I have a number of japanese friends who would be in your recluse age group, even the worst off one (I don't want to tell their personal story here, but it's not good and probably sounds like many great struggles to find identity for young people), ultimately became a salaryman. I think they are finding their way eventually, most of them at least. It's always been strange for me to try and understand Japanese culture. I am Japanese but I don't think I would ever be considered Japanese, so it still feels almost like an outsider looking in, with maybe a slightly less foggy window.

That's a very good question. Something to mull over.

> You should checkout The Ascent of Money for a good history of corporations and the financial innovations that made them possible.

Sure. I'll check it out.

During the C64's lifetime, sales were around 15 million units in total. The C64 was "relevant" between 1981 and 1991. So, roughly 125,000 units sold a month. "Making it the best-selling single personal computer model of all time." -Wikipedia, with sources.

Computers have never sold as much as phones. Phones of any variety. So what?

I don't equate "Skateboard = Automobile" because they both have wheels. I don't change my thinking from skateboard to car because cars sell more.

I like skateboards. I like computers. Neither are going away any time soon.

I think you are confusing "relevant" with "popular" or "big piles of money i'd like to take a bath in." I applaud developers who broaden what they are doing. I applaud investors who want to make money investing in whatever makes money. But, businesses come and go. Commodore, in fact, is a perfect example of botching the business, while others continued to make the product, improve the product, and the product is still relevant.

Furthermore, Facebook didn't invent the "generation gap". It's the same thing over and over and over dating back thousands of years. "Being social" is "being human" and not necessarily "being Facebook." There's a bigger picture here.

Regards,

Which is interesting, considering that many of us are here because we want to take some risk as entrepreneurs, to step out and do what people are not doing. Does that mean entrepreneurs are not social?

Facebook is definitely the most of evil of them all, but Google is also doing it.

This is an institutional desire, probably by the advertising industry, that will not stop.

I think, since this is so new, there is no clear understanding of what the "correct" privacy controls are. That is why I love the fact that G+ exists. Competition will help solve this problem.

Add app activity to your timeline Washington Post Social Reader may publish your app activity to your timeline.

If you don't want the app to automatically publish something, then just x out that permission.

For example, Spotify, it is practically neutered unless you connect it to Facebook, but as soon as it is connected to Facebook it can send data to Facebook as me.

There was an app not too long ago that required Facebook to login, it too asked for those permissions. Now it can without my permission start sharing content based upon actions in the webapp. I am not okay with that.

The second part of the application is the social part. Again, if you don't trust an application you can always go to your app settings page on facebook (https://www.facebook.com/settings/?tab=applications), select the application you are worried about and deny specific items that you don't want the app to have access to.

If you "x" out too many things, you might cripple the application, but that's the way it works.

How much damage would it be possible to do in the 3 - 4 minutes it will take me to go back to Facebook, go to my account settings, look at my app settings, find the app in the huge list, and then start removing permissions I don't want to grant it?

After that I have to go through the effort to find the post content in my timeline, one by one delete the items and hope that my friends have not yet seen the content (and it being posted to the ticker makes that unlikely...)

So, if you don't do the second part, you should be fine?

Also, I personally would be careful in installing apps. This goes for any application (not just facebook). If you trust an app, go ahead, if not, just avoid it. This is going to be different for different people.

Edit: Ok, I think I see your point. You don't want an app to ask for too many permissions right off the bat and then you having to go back and remove them.

Again, I think this is going to be developer and users driven. The more people ask for apps to start off with minimal permissions the developers will have to comply. Does that make sense?

If they can retroactively remove them, they should be able to do so before I even grant any permissions.

Give me two columns, one "Allow" and one "Disallow" and I can drag the permissions to the columns as I see fit. Can an app give me a template or ask for certain permissions by default, yes, absolutely, but let me change them.

If you have your privacy setting in Facebook on "only me," then what you read within the app will not go to Timeline or be seen by friends outside of the app. However, _inside the app_ friends who have also downloaded Social Reader _will_ be able to see what you’ve read http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2011/09/23/relax-f...

If that isn't a violation of the spirit of Facebook's privacy settings, I don't know what is.

Of course it's been possible to build newsreaders that spy on people's browsing habits and share them with Facebook friends (or anyone else) since the early days of the Facebook API, but this particular app is promoted by Facebook themselves as a flagship for the way new passive sharing apps should be.

I checked the list of "authorized" apps from the post upstream (https://www.facebook.com/settings?tab=applications) and there were 4 things in the list (Bing, Pandora, Yelp and one other that I'm forgetting) none of which I'd ever explicitly authorized for facebook access. If I ever use OAuth for anything, I use my twitter account, never facebook.

Any idea how those got in there, and what setting I can use to never let them back in?

Similarly, for Spotify to do this Activity stuff, you need to give them an extended permission called 'publish_actions'.

If anything, actions are less dangerous, since the size and visibility of the content is significantly more limited than are wall posts.

Anyone saying otherwise either is linkbaiting or truly does not understand the Facebook platform.

If enough people did that (or started to from now on) the demands for extended app privileges might drop.

Why complain about features you don't have to use, when many of us like to use them?

Facebook originally just allowed you to share what you wanted to. Now it is simply ridiculous.

I run facebook on the iphone, or in a separate browser, to keep in touch with some relatives in far away countries. It is great for that, and I am very happy to be able to do that.

I sympathize with people's concern about apps requesting more permissions than they need to do their job, but here, "sharing articles I've read" is a core part of what the product is.

So if you don't install the app, and I do, what's the problem?

There are already webapps that require logins using Facebook connect and provide no alternate means for me to login (I've started creating many a fake Facebook account) and require a whole laundry list of permissions. It won't be too hard to in the future see that people are going to gloss over what permissions they are giving away so that they can get to their free article from the NYT or the Post.

This slow erosion is exactly what I am worried about. That is how the United States is slowly losing all forms of civil liberties and are slowly becoming a police state.

Naked scanners at airports didn't just suddenly happen, it was a long process with some fear thrown in from some stupid jackass with an underwear bomb. DHS used fear to allow them to patrol 150 miles inland from the United States border. The patriot act keeps getting renewed and the only reason it passed was because of 9/11.

No, saying "but it's okay right now, it won't do anything automatically unless you give it permission" doesn't help. Soon it will be "What do you have to hide? Permissions? The web is open..."

"The Eternal Value of Privacy" by Bruce Schneier, http://www.wired.com/politics/security/commentary/securityma... (article for Wired)

"Why Privacy Matters Even if You Have 'Nothing to Hide'", http://chronicle.com/article/Why-Privacy-Matters-Even-if/127... (for the Chronicle)

Not to cast aspersions, and I really don't mean this personally (which would be impossible since I don't know you), but is it possible that these friends are simply boring people? There's always an unspoken corner-case (perhaps a "center-case"?) where there are people with nothing to hide. I'm not talking about extroverts and exhibitionists who don't care how their personalities translate to the commenting-online world, but those who watch the news, have a couple of kids, go see a Luke Wilson movie, etc. and that's the extent of their external lives. There are lots of perfectly contributing members of society who have no interest in politics or celebrity, play Bridge on Wednesdays with that awesome Chex Mix that Annie makes, and so on.

Beware of selection bias.