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Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by mikece on Monday February 07, 2022 @04:38PM (#30251625)
If you take money out of the equation, how will you convince the generals to select/help enhance your project when you cannot offer them a half million dollar a year VP job at your software project when they retire? I'm not joking or being cynical, this is how DoD acquisition works: the revolving door from General to VP to civilian DoD manager to Senior VP for a defense contractor to whatever political appointment can be wrangled. I would LOVE to see OSS succeed at the five-sided puzzle palace but unless it's a civilian DoD contractor pushing it (and charging a boatload in the process) I'm just skeptical this will change much.
Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by ritwikgupta on Monday February 07, 2022 @04:47PM (#30251767)
In my opinion, the waves of change towards OSS are already being stirred by DoD military, civilian, and contractor personnel alike. I think this also aligns with industry adopting an open-source-first, provide services/hosting model as well.

Anecdata, but most DoD program managers (CIV, CTR, or MIL) I know who work on software programs are generally driven by a need to solve the problems that they face. They gladly embrace open source solutions when they're made available easily.

Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by mistrial9 on Monday February 07, 2022 @07:59PM (#30253711)
Q. How does the Open Source community benefit from this?
Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by ritwikgupta on Monday February 07, 2022 @08:31PM (#30253913)
By enabling a contractual path to supporting FOSS projects/foundations with real funding, the DoD becomes a valid (authorized) player to support the community. Additionally, the memo enables (and encourages) DoD personnel to contribute to open source software as part of their job's responsibilities. This brings thousands of developers into the OSS community who otherwise may not have engaged/may not have been allowed to engage.

> (1) Government employees may contribute to existing OSS projects (including being the primary maintainer) as part of their official duties, so long as they consult with their supervisor first to ensure a common-sense approach for contributions that preserve Operations Security (OPSEC) and further the Government's interests.

Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by astrea on Monday February 07, 2022 @09:36PM (#30254318)
Worst case? They don't. They adopt OSS where possible to cut costs, fluff resumes, reduce effort and it ends up in a private repo somewhere only a few people will ever see. Best case? They create a public fork that fixes bugs and makes it suitable for their use case. Source: anecdata from being in the kitchen while the sausage was made.
Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by kodah on Tuesday February 08, 2022 @12:52AM (#30255325)
The same way Open Source benefits from the NSA's current and former contributions.
Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by TAForObvReasons on Monday February 07, 2022 @08:08PM (#30253777)
A: Like with most of these programs, a few large organizations like google and microsoft stand to make a lot more money, but the people at the heart of the problem (the actual maintainers) stand to lose.

AT the bare minimum, even doing it yourself, it costs more money to create a company and apply for 501C3 status than the paltry sums of money most projects receive in donations.

Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by ritwikgupta on Monday February 07, 2022 @08:33PM (#30253932)
I completely agree that there's some overhead associated with my proposed route, and really only makes sense if your project is large enough such that this overhead is already being incurred. I believe there is still a large gap between projects supported by large tech companies and companies that fit this bill, and in that gap are projects that can benefit from this change.
Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by mlinksva on Tuesday February 08, 2022 @12:28AM (#30255218)
There are also various c3 and c6 (and similar statuses outside the US) fiscal sponsors that may work for some projects that don't want to set up a whole organization.
Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by tannhaeuser on Tuesday February 08, 2022 @01:37AM (#30255552)
By having yet another discussion about OSI's version of the term "Open Source", and in particular about whether restriction in military use is covered by the "Fourth Freedom" (or wherever they postulate absence of purpose restrictions).

NB there's no such thing as an "Open Source community", just individuals and orgs with different goals: some want to show off, some want additional maintainers if at all possible, some want to give away their complement, some want to establish an alternative to a competitor's product, some want to promote a language or format, some want xGPL for political reasons, yet others don't care at all

Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by klyrs on Monday February 07, 2022 @11:39PM (#30254952)
Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by thisismyaccoun7 on Monday February 07, 2022 @08:12PM (#30253803)
Acquisition is not the only way DoD operates.

I work at a Navy research center that's 3000+ employee strong and feeds all of DoD (we're a working capital fund, meaning we take customers to fund ourselves). In four years here, I've worked projects sponsored by Air Force, DHS/CBP, Navy, Marines, and two three letter agencies. There was no general involved in any of them, and I don't know any projects by coworkers that involved acquisition of technology. As for my projects, all except one still still in R&D have transitioned into production systems. All involve OSS to some degree. One was a design for a COTS multi source information fusion system meant to be deployed in the cloud and has all the open source tech there you'd expect, NiFi, Kafka, Spark, etc. My current project is a combination of us (correlation) and two contractors (separately IT and predictive models). Again, it's all the OSS and tech you'd expect to find in a real time analytics/tipping system and CI/CD pipeline/orchestration.

I bring up my experience not to say you're wrong but to show there are other avenues it comes in. There are lots of research labs, and researchers aren't about buying software from contractors.

Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by Frost1x on Monday February 07, 2022 @09:21PM (#30254217)
>There are lots of research labs, and researchers aren't about buying software from contractors.

In these DoD research environments (I've worked in them before), researchers typically aren't about building software, either. It's expensive, even if you hire the teams. Not always, but unless your research is technology driven, it tends to be about cutting corners on software and delivering research quality MVPs (semi-working prototypes) while all focus is on the research. You can forget overhead of best practice infrastructure for development/engineering, that's wasted overhead in some of those group's eyes. The more theoretical it is, the easier it is to get away with, the more applied, the less easy it is to handwave away reality.

If you're at a heavily funded technology focused org like NRL (which the description sounds a lot like--neat stuff comes out of NRL), then this can be the case. There are, however, a lot of DoD funded research labs that are dumpster fires in terms of the software--NRL is almost the golden child compared to most of them. Again, in some such labs, a project may only have sufficient budget for 0.05 to 0.1 FTEs worth of software engineers. In such cases, 0.4 FTEs of software engineers can be considered a significant investment for a project, which is beyond laughable.

Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by amcoastal on Monday February 07, 2022 @09:56PM (#30254443)
Out of all the comments in this thread, this one has been the most like my experience.
Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by quadruplebond on Tuesday February 08, 2022 @09:09AM (#30258523)
If dod research labs are like NNSA research labs part of why 0.4 FTEs can be considered significant investment is because overheads are quite high. My experience is that for every dollar a FTE makes their project is paying an additional 2-3 dollars in overhead. That means your $130K/yr FTE is using 50% of your $1M/yr budget.

I'm not sure what the typical cost for an FTE are in industry, but I believe they are lower than 3-4x base salary.

Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by jandrewrogers on Monday February 07, 2022 @10:45PM (#30254687)
I think the best future model for DoD software is to bring much more of the systems integration and product development in-house, mostly using open source, which will produce a higher quality and less expensive result for the DoD. Critical differentiated software technologies will be outsourced to boutique software companies that can offer software capabilities that are qualitatively superior to anything available in open source but can't be developed on DoD software engineering wages and/or budgets.

There are often large gaps between the mission requirements and the technical capabilities of open sources software, and research labs lack the expertise and budget to address those gaps in practice. Of course, the usual system integrators can't build this software either but they will charge the taxpayer a lot of money to fail at it.

Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by wolverine876 on Monday February 07, 2022 @06:40PM (#30253108)
> I'm not joking or being cynical, this is how DoD acquisition works

What is that based on? Have you worked at DoD? Is there research supporting it?

DoD acquisition depends much more on civilians, not uniformed officers, and then they must be part of the President's budget and, ultimately, Congress. Officers play a minor role.

Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by someguydave on Tuesday February 08, 2022 @10:52AM (#30259863)
Top officers select which civilians get control.
Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by wolverine876 on Tuesday February 08, 2022 @07:19PM (#30266801)
Who did and when? Can you provide any evidence. Also, the oficers often have bad relationships with the President and the National Security Advisor and staff, not to mention Congressional committees - the officers certainly wouldn't select them if they could.
Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by atonse on Monday February 07, 2022 @10:07PM (#30254498)
How does this matter? You still have to pay these DoD contractors to implement the OSS stuff. It won't implement itself.

License fees are a rounding error compared to the cost of personnel.

Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by not2b on Monday February 07, 2022 @10:36PM (#30254628)
Open source software needs support. They could use the old Cygnus model and have people who are paid well to fix everything the DoD needs fixed. The general in charge of the contract could move there on retirement.
Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by kidme5 on Tuesday February 08, 2022 @01:14AM (#30255438)
Great example of this is Michael D. Griffin. He started the Space Development Agency for commercial launchers and then retired to join the Rocket Lab he enabled.
Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by walrus01 on Monday February 07, 2022 @04:54PM (#30251866)
the cynical side of me says "that's okay, the generals and such can still get cushy jobs at companies that manufacture hardware used by the DoD"
Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by csdvrx on Monday February 07, 2022 @04:51PM (#30251814)
I'm sure RedHat, Amazon or Microsoft could, and would.
Re:The DoD is prioritizing open source software by citizenpaul on Tuesday February 08, 2022 @01:22PM (#30262270)
But they are prioritizing it! With what? Encouragement and Prioritization. It will be a huge succees /s