News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by stuff4ben on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:11PM (#30196217)
I tend to side with the tech companies (Apple in particular) due to the security issues and review process. It's not perfect and the cut seems excessive IMO, but there is value there that can't be dismissed outright. It'll be interesting to see how Apple and Google handle this. Maybe they'll allow side-loading with big, scary language? Or perhaps a cheaper or even free tier for developers to allow apps on their respective App stores?
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by itg on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:37PM (#30196636)
I don't buy the security issue scare-mongering from Apple if they are required to open up their platform. Bruce Schneier points out the flaws in Apple's argument very well in his letter https://www.schneier.com/essays/archives/2022/01/letter-to-t....
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by stuff4ben on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:17PM (#30198188)
Thanks for that link to Schneier's letter! He breaks down the bills and provides relevant and cogent arguments to both Apple and Google's positions which I hadn't considered.
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by anonymouse008 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @02:55PM (#30197875)
If I paid for Apple's centralization, by buying their products, and now that's being forcefully removed from me. How is this ok?
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by olyjohn on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:09PM (#30198036)
What's being removed from you again? Don't sideload apps if you don't like sideloading. Keep using Apple's app store if you like it, or maybe in the future, you will find you like an app store better than Apple's. We will never find out if someone does it better than Apple, if nobody can even try.
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by anonymouse008 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:27PM (#30198306)
> What's being removed from you again? Don't sideload apps if you don't like sideloading. Keep using Apple's app store if you like it, or maybe in the future, you will find you like an app store better than Apple's. We will never find out if someone does it better than Apple, if nobody can even try.

Um, the fact I've told any semi-non-competent person to buy iPhone because it very specifically won't screw up like the popup ridden land of Android.

Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by root_axis on Thursday February 03, 2022 @08:26PM (#30201619)
> Um, the fact I've told any semi-non-competent person to buy iPhone because it very specifically won't screw up like the popup ridden land of Android.

How does this relate to your original comment claiming you're losing something you paid for?

Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by Apocryphon on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:54PM (#30198674)
And if Apple can't keep the quality of their software from falling to that level, just because of being slightly more open, then that is their failure.
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by toqy on Thursday February 03, 2022 @07:32PM (#30201159)
What? They’ve already prevented it from falling to that level. If that is changed through legislation how is it their failure?
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by Apocryphon on Thursday February 03, 2022 @10:27PM (#30202459)
Because they exercise enough control over their platform, the App Store is far from the only avenue of protection.
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by threeseed on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:14PM (#30198127)
This is such a facetious argument.

You know that developers will end up using alternate App Stores.

Which means I will be forced to use them if I want to continue to use the app.

Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by idle_zealot on Thursday February 03, 2022 @04:04PM (#30198820)
> You know that developers will end up using alternate App Stores

This keeps being stated as though it’s a foregone conclusion. All evidence points to the contrary. Look at Google Play. Android has allowed third-party stores since inception and yet the only stores that see any notable use are the ones that ship on devices, i.e. Google Play and to a much smaller extent OEM stores (at least in the English market).

So no, it is not likely that you will have to install another store. Just like most Android users only ever touch the Play Store most iOS users will only ever touch the App Store.

The only notable stores I expect to see from this are an Epic Games store that basically just has Fortnite on it, and some community-driven F-Droid-like.

Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by Apocryphon on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:55PM (#30198698)
What developers will do that? Android has alternate stores, and there isn't any vendor lock-in. The Amazon and Samsung Android alternatives to the Play Store aren't huge competitors. Epic hasn't tried to build their alternative Android app store yet with Fortnite as an exclusive. This is all scare-mongering about what could happen but probably won't happen. Name a single major Android app that's located on an alternative app store.
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by dmz73 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:38PM (#30198475)
Apple's centralization is not forcefully removed, you can choose to keep using only Apple approved software from Apple store and you will not see any difference. This change would just allows you to install software from another source if you wish. If Apple implements the change similar to how Android works, you will have to allow installation from non-Apple store sources, you can do it per app, you can do it once and then disable it, you can allow main app store to scan all your apps for security.

If you are arguing that some people will be tricked into installing malware from other sources then you are right that this change would allow that but it will still require user to go through few steps which should raise red flags for them. Some people just can't resist pushing that button without thinking and regardless of the consequences and in that case app store safety net is just temporary anyway, they are still exposed to the real world where that will harm them in a more serious way.

Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by anonymouse008 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:45PM (#30198556)
> If you are arguing that some people will be tricked into installing malware from other sources then you are right that this change would allow that but it will still require user to go through few steps which should raise red flags for them. Some people just can't resist pushing that button without thinking and regardless of the consequences and in that case app store safety net is just temporary anyway, they are still exposed to the real world where that will harm them in a more serious way.

I seriously could care less what we as HN want out of a phone in a way. We are head strong enough to do something different for ourselves -- literally look at PinePhone, etc.

What I'm concerned about is the trickery that is sinister beyond belief, getting access that they never earned and do not deserve.

Here's an example: https://youtu.be/VrKW58MS12g?t=406

This 'hack' is quite insane... Brillant and horrid... and I foresee it happening left and right.

Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by hedora on Friday February 04, 2022 @11:33AM (#30208998)
Yeah; these glitterbomb avengers are contributing to a national airbnb shortage.

Seriously though, I have a hand typed letter from the mid 80's running a similar scam.

If anything, technology has made this sort of thing riskier for the scammers.

Consider how you'd reproduce the vigilante's setup using 1980's technology. It probably wouldn't be feasible.

Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by olliej on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:57PM (#30198724)
we already know it causes malware. Android has demonstrated this very clearly.

You also can't retroactively undo a security hole: once you've installed malicious software the other software on the system by definition can't be trusted.

Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by dmz73 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @09:31PM (#30202085)
Android has demonstrated that you can have multiple app stores and that majority of users will happily use the default app store which for vast majority of Android phones is Google Play store.

Malware has made it into Google Play store which is Google's fault. Same has happened to Apple (https://9to5mac.com/2021/05/07/emails-reveal-128-million-ios... https://us.norton.com/internetsecurity-emerging-threats-ios-...) so you cannot be guaranteed to be safe just because you are behind a walled garden, you still need to think for yourself.

Allowing app side-loading or different app store is not a security hole. Using non-approved apps or non-trusted app stores might allow for existing security hole to be exploited more easily but it might also allow for better protection against such security hole by providing better curated app stores for less tech-savvy users.

Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by andrewjl on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:09PM (#30198039)
How is it forcefully being removed from you?
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by anonymouse008 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:58PM (#30198735)
I purchased my goods with the express contract that the AppStore will be the only way a developer gets access to Apple's APIs, Libraries, and instruction sets for iPhone.

That's the thesis for a treatise I could write. This breaks the contract I had with them upon purchase.

Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by andrewjl on Thursday February 03, 2022 @04:23PM (#30199100)
> I purchased my goods with the express contract that the AppStore will be the only way a developer gets access to Apple's APIs, Libraries, and instruction sets for iPhone.

Any software license you may have purchased is a non-exclusive one. Apple can re-license their own software however they wish.

Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by idle_zealot on Thursday February 03, 2022 @04:08PM (#30198879)
That’s not true though. Users can already sign and sideload apps from a Mac. It’s just that doing so imposes annoyances (have to manually update apps, and resign every week). Allowing proper sideloading would only eliminate annoyances associated with current capabilities.
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by JoeAltmaier on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:15PM (#30196281)
Don't kid yourself. Definitely not value for money. They're checking that nobody is getting around their pay-to-play walled garden. Any security checking is probably automated and incidental.
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by stuff4ben on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:11PM (#30198092)
> Any security checking is probably automated

Genuine question, do you think that comes free? It costs money to develop these things and having control over the app store allows them to recoup that. I see no problem except maybe it's too expensive for developers. A more reasonable cut should be offered IMO.

Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by e93849 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @04:05PM (#30198829)
I already paid Apple when I bought my iPhone. Why should I be forced to keep paying them more?
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by JoeAltmaier on Thursday February 03, 2022 @07:25PM (#30201068)
Hell, you own the phone, the contract with the carrier, the storage. Apple is like a thug on the street charging a cover charge to go in the club, and they don't own the club or work for them. They just demand money because they're bigger than you.
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by e4e78a06 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:20PM (#30196351)
Android already has side loading, and Epic tried and failed to get a third party store going. I highly doubt this bill will do anything unless it mandates that Google can't mandate Google Play Store as a condition of receiving development support.
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by sudosysgen on Thursday February 03, 2022 @02:27PM (#30197461)
F-Droid, Amazon, Samsung, and multiple Chinese companies are operating third-party stores with a fair amount of success.
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by Apocryphon on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:57PM (#30198723)
F-Droid is great for hackers- a niche subset. Chinese app stores are a special case because of legal and political separation. How successful are Amazon or Samsung's app stores, and do they actually host any popular apps that users can't get on the Play Store?
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by TipiKoivisto on Thursday February 03, 2022 @10:24PM (#30202447)
Excellent question. Would be great to see some real stats about download numbers and available apps (and not only from the two big ones: https://www.statista.com/statistics/276623/number-of-apps-av...).
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by thaumasiotes on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:02PM (#30197951)
> multiple Chinese companies are operating third-party stores with a fair amount of success

The Chinese companies are getting a substantial subsidy; the Google Play store is blocked in China.

Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by vorpalhex on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:58PM (#30196968)
Epic had moderate success, as does f-droid.
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by scarface74 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:31PM (#30196536)
Epic also perfectly demonstrated the security issues involved.

https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/just-as-critics-feared-fort...

Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by JaimeThompson on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:38PM (#30196644)
Apple also perfectly demonstrated even more worrisome security issues https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30192743
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by scarface74 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @02:06PM (#30197111)
Would you trust Apple to patch security fixes and distribute it as soon as they know or a random third party developer?
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by bluSCALE4 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @02:22PM (#30197372)
Neither. Lots of bounty hunters have come out threatening to go public if Apple doesn't patch fix / pay them.
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by scarface74 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @11:27PM (#30202870)
Why haven’t they then? Or at least sold them already to one of the Israeli firms?
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by JaimeThompson on Friday February 04, 2022 @07:55AM (#30206193)
If the sold them to a private company we wouldn't know about it.
Re:App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee by m463 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:58PM (#30196972)
But what if there was a "Bruce Schneier" app store?