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Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by nexuist on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @10:32AM (#30178973)
Seriously, Tesla's autopilot rolls through stop signs because everyone does. How many people are going to get rear ended because every Tesla stops at a stop sign now? It feels like enforcing this behavior is more dangerous than letting it slide.

It's the same with following the speed limit on roads where everyone speeds. Nobody is going to like self driving cars if they're going 25 on a road where everyone goes 40, where the speed limit should clearly be adjusted. The accidents that occur from drivers not being able to stop for a slow car in time, drivers getting annoyed and attempting to overtake, or drivers causing road rage incidents will dwarf whatever crash rate you'd get by just letting the car go faster.

Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by kspacewalk2 on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @10:43AM (#30179132)
So Tesla is supposed to mimic bad driving of bad drivers? Whatever happened to the promised Age of Road Safety, brought about by smart AI whose ability to make decisions is so much better than the useless chunks of meat menacing our roads today?

>How many people are going to get rear ended because every Tesla stops at a stop sign now?

So bad drivers roll through stop signs, and this behaviour is somehow at equilibrium with terrible drivers who follow too closely and are thus perpetually on the verge of rear-ending someone? Best not upset this equilibrium, it clearly works so well!

>It's the same with following the speed limit on roads where everyone speeds.

Of course it is. Can't wait for speeding self-driving cars taking out cyclists or pedestrians. Whaddaya want from me, I put it in 'hurry mode' because I've got places to be!

>Nobody is going to like self driving cars if they're going 25 on a road where everyone goes 40, where the speed limit should clearly be adjusted. The accidents that occur from drivers not being able to stop for a slow car in time, drivers getting annoyed and attempting to overtake, or drivers causing road rage incidents will dwarf whatever crash rate you'd get by just letting the car go faster.

Speeders that endanger lives of everyone not currently inside a car, now embedded in an efficient algorithm. Whatever could go wrong? My North American barely liveable city is gonna be so much better for it!

Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by nexuist on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @11:00AM (#30179353)
Tesla is supposed to mimic human driving so its cars are predictable to other human drivers. What's the point of driving safely if it gets you in an accident?

> Speeders that endanger lives of everyone not currently inside a car, now embedded in an efficient algorithm

Maybe pedestrians should be voting to improve public transportation instead of trying to walk in roads clearly not meant for pedestrians. Has nobody heard of trains or buses? How is it a solution to make every car go 25 mph just in case some random person decides to jaywalk?

Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by FireBeyond on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:37PM (#30183683)
> Tesla is supposed to mimic human driving so its cars are predictable to other human drivers. What's the point of driving safely if it gets you in an accident?

Weird, Musk is always talking about how FSD is far better than human driving, and far safer.

He's never once said "it's trying to mimic humans", or that it's "much safer unless that might cause an accident, and only then will it drive unsafely (like rolling through stop signs)".

This sounds like post-facto rationalization to me.

Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by kspacewalk2 on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @11:07AM (#30179448)
>Tesla is supposed to mimic human driving so its cars are predictable to other human drivers.

Great! I don't roll or blow through stops, follow too closely or speed by more than 5 kmh within city limits. I drive carefully and defensively, avoiding dangerous manoeuvres, especially when a driver close to me seems erratic (for example, blows through a stop sign, speeds or follows too closely).

Tesla should mimic my driving.

Pedestrians should be voting to improve public transportation in addition to improving walkability of their neighbourhoods, not instead of that.

>How is it a solution to make every car go 25 mph just in case some random person decides to jaywalk?

In my Canadian province, crossing mid-block is perfectly legal as long as you yield to traffic, and 'jaywalking' is not a legal concept. Slowing cars down is safer not just because it reduces the likelihood and severity of hitting pedestrians when they cross incorrectly. It is also safer because it reduces the likelihood and severity of hitting pedestrians when they cross correctly, or walk on a sidewalk. It is also safer because it reduces the likelihood and severity of hitting cyclists and other cars. Highways should be designed for speed, whereas streets should be designed for safety at the expense of speed.

Besides, when a city gets above a certain size and is not missing traffic lights where they should be, speeding within city limits is often quite a futile endeavour. I can't tell you how many times I see drivers who go 70 in a 50 kmh zone zoom past me, just to be waiting at the next light, or the one after that as I pull up after going 55 kmh the whole way. I won't lie, it can be amusing.

If self-driving cars just emulate the stupid, dangerous and illogical habits of human drivers, then to hell with self-driving cars, and you can bet I'll be voting for that.

Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by jjnoakes on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @10:35AM (#30179025)
Who is just driving into cars at stop signs because they stop for an extra two seconds?
Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by nexuist on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @10:50AM (#30179212)
Ask my dad or the variety of people in your life that have had it happen to them. I guarantee you know people this has happened to. Have you never heard of getting rear ended?
Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by jjnoakes on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @04:03PM (#30184029)
> Ask my dad or the variety of people in your life that have had it happen to them

Every rear-end accident I've ever been aware of at a stop sign would have happened whether the person in front stopped for 2 seconds, 5 seconds, or 7 seconds. They were all due to the person in the back not paying attention and not driving safely. Whether the person in the front did a slow 5 second rolling stop or a 5-7 second full stop has never been relevant.

Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by mrtranscendence on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @11:26AM (#30179727)
> I guarantee you know people this has happened to.

I'm unaware of anyone I know around here ever getting rear-ended because someone stopped at a stop sign. Granted, the culture here is to actually stop at each stop sign, so, you know, it's expected that people will actually stop and not just assumed that they're going to roll through.

Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by notreallyserio on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @11:01AM (#30179362)
Of course. Although most rear-ending I've seen is on highways when drivers (that shouldn't be on the road) fail to leave adequate distance in front of them.
Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by ben_w on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @11:00AM (#30179343)
Related situation, but not quite the same: I know someone who wrote off their car on the A14 near Cambridge (UK) because they weren’t paying attention in stop-start traffic and rear-ended the one in front.

Ironically, she hates Elon Musk and everything he does, so memes about how self driving cars are a terrible idea.

Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by foobarian on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @11:03AM (#30179403)
You know what is really ironic? If this person was in a Tesla or similar car with obstacle detection the car would have never let them rear end the one in front in stop-and-go traffic.
Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by ben_w on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @11:07AM (#30179450)
That’s the point ;)
Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by foobarian on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @11:09AM (#30179481)
Too subtle for this sleep deprived brain. Cheers to you sir :-)
Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by baggy_trough on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @10:37AM (#30179047)
Robots who do not follow traffic norms will quickly become infuriating.
Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by pc86 on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @10:46AM (#30179165)
Not an answer to the question.
Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by jeffbee on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @11:01AM (#30179363)
Anyone who advocates that not stopping a car at stop signs is a "norm" should be launched directly into the sun. This is why traffic deaths in the U.S. are 40k/year and increasing at 15% per year.
Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by Amezarak on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:20PM (#30185670)
The increase has more to do with cellphones, but people don’t want to talk about that because there’s a very simple, easy fix - it would just cost advertisers and anger people who couldn’t use their phone in the car anymore.
Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by baggy_trough on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @12:54PM (#30181211)
If you think a rolling stop warrants being launched into the sun, well, I will have to question your good judgement, or perhaps whether or not you have actually driven a car before.
Re:Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imag... by klyrs on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:46PM (#30182974)
> How many people are going to get rear ended because every Tesla stops at a stop sign now?

Probably not many, and they'll mostly be low-speed. And the person who follows to closely and doesn't brake at stop lights is 100% at fault in that situation. Why blame Tesla for following the law? If you think the law is stupid, get the vote out and change it.

I once got pulled over for driving 5 over the limit. There was a squadron of tens of motorcycle cops who pulled everybody over. I challenged the ticket in court, complaining that one cannot drive the speed limit on that road without other drivers getting aggro, and that I was driving with the flow of traffic. The judge did not care. He said it's my responsibility to follow the law. So, good luck.