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Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by enjoylife on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @04:08PM (#30169290)
They are betting that hardware combination is the fastest to market, given the constraints of today software.

When the ml stack is capable of leveraging purely camera sensors, Cruise and others like them, own the fleet and can swap out the hardware. Tesla does not "own" the fleet per se. So perhaps its different bets on which cars will still be on the road when the ML threshold is crossed.

Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by threeseed on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @04:40PM (#30169784)
> when the ML threshold is crossed

If, not when.

Even the most cutting edge research today still pales in comparison to LiDAR.

Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by ivalm on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @07:51PM (#30172052)
Is it really an "if"? I think it would be pretty safe bet that in 100 years human-quality CV object detection will be solved (note, we both know that it is possible AND this doesn't require AGI). So then it's really a question of when (presumably you don't need the full 100 years).
Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by kylecordes on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @10:06PM (#30173174)
As an amateur (non-AI-expert) it seems to me that behind every corner is lurking a sub-problem that is AGI-equivalent. I don't see any reason to believe that humans do human-quality object detection without also deploying tremendous contextual understanding of the world. So perhaps it will turn out that a computer needs something similar?
Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by ivalm on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @01:05AM (#30174345)
I think decision making in driving is highly contextual, but LiDAR doesn’t help there either. Purely visual field extraction is something even very simple animals can do (presumably which much weaker abstract context processing capabilities).
Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by ihattendorf on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @09:29PM (#30172842)
> note, we both know that it is possible AND this doesn't require AGI

Not who you're replying to and not saying you're wrong, but how do we know this?

Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by ivalm on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @01:04AM (#30174337)
We know in a sense that very simple animals do it and it doesn’t require decision making (in a sense that LiDAR only helps with perception).
Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by mhh__ on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:33AM (#30175172)
So I can teach my dog to drive the car?
Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by audunw on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @04:47AM (#30175568)
Your dog can reliably detect objects, judge distance and avoid them.

That's all the person is saying. Simple animals can use only vision to do what we're using lidar and radar to do. But neither camera, lidar nor radar or any combination of them guarantees that you'll be able to make a computer drive a car in all situations.

For me, intuitively, the problem of reconstructing a distance field from cameras must be way harder than say, trying to predict what a person on a bike will do next, or detect road lines on the road in heavy rain or snow. So it seems very likely that an "AI" capable of driving a car in all situations would be powerful to not need lidar or radar (though I don't see the point of dropping radar, as it gives you some ability to "see" around objects which can make cars better than humans)

Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by aantix on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @10:30AM (#30178933)
Would Tesla be ahead if they had incorporated LiDAR?

Because they already have the data advantage for ML.

Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by afterburner on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @12:29AM (#30174091)
Also you can't sell sexy Teslas if they have ugly lidars on top.
Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by mikejb on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:45AM (#30174873)
I think it's not just that. When Tesla started to with their FSD journey, they had to determine what sensors they can add to the car. Lidars back then were way more expensive than they are now, and it wouldn't have been feasible to add them at that time.

They can't add them now to new vehicles because they promised the vehicles back then are only a software update away from full autonomy [1]. Building on Lidar now would mean developing on 2 heavily differentiating stacks. Going back on the promise of old Tesla's being "FSD capable" would introduce a huge liability.

Long story short, Tesla's stance on Lidar determined 8 years ago, without the option to revise the decision with future developments.

[1] Note this has turned into "we'll only have to replace the computer in the car", which is still doable, contrary to adding sensors to the existing vehicle.

Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by waffle_maniac on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @04:46PM (#30169865)
Tesla has really fallen behind. I think Karpathy will be fired this year if his team can't achieve at least L4.
Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by yupper32 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @05:08PM (#30170181)
> I think Karpathy will be fired this year if his team can't achieve at least L4.

Ah so Karpathy will be fired this year. Because they're not reaching L4. FSD isn't even L3 yet.

Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by ghaff on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @05:29PM (#30170444)
I do expect at least some companies will hit L4 within the decade(?) but it's going to be under limited conditions that won't include urban driving. Which could actually be a very useful capability but isn't the "don't own a car" future that some really are focused on.

------

Level 4 _ High Automation

System capability: The car can operate without human input or oversight but only under select conditions defined by factors such as road type or geographic area. • Driver involvement: In a shared car restricted to a defined area, there may not be any. But in a privately owned Level 4 car, the driver might manage all driving duties on surface streets then become a passenger as the car enters a highway.

Example: Google’s now-defunct Firefly pod-car prototype, which had neither pedals nor a steering wheel and was restricted to a top speed of 25 mph.

Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by xp84 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @06:48PM (#30171475)
> "driver might manage all driving duties on surface streets then become a passenger as the car enters a highway."

This is the kind of setup I can't wrap my head around. The car might "require" you to take over when you exit the highway, but it can't exactly "make" you. If you fall asleep on the freeway and the car isn't willing/able to drive at the end of your journey, or in edge cases if you were to pass out, etc. what does it do when it gets to your designated exit, or to the final exit of a designated highway? Are there going to be a bunch of cars all stacked up with flashers on the shoulder by every off-ramp waiting for their people to wake up / quit playing on their phones and engage manual mode?

Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by bluGill on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @10:20AM (#30178751)
I'm thinking more like a semi truck. Get onto the freeway on-ramp, pull over and get out, then the truck continues on without you for miles before taking an off-ramp where a driver is waiting to handle the nearby streets. I expect truck stops in rural areas will (with DOT help) get special on/off ramps that are approved (maybe a special stop light?) so that trucks can go to a full service pump for fuel and get back on the freeway.

As you say, city driving is hard, but there are a lot of trucks that cross the US on freeways that are easy to automate.

Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by ghaff on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @08:10AM (#30176973)
I'm as skeptical about self-driving as just about anyone. But this seems to be getting into real edge case territory. Person falls asleep/is watching a movie and doesn't respond to increasingly urgent alerts? Is this really a problem? And is it a problem that's greater than fatigued driving today?
Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by zaptrem on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @07:53PM (#30172074)
Pull into breakdown lane.
Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by sangnoir on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @11:52PM (#30173868)
What happens when there isn't one? Roadworks, and accidents cause frequent closures of the breakdown lane. L3 has a lot of edge cases where the vehicle is supposedly too dumb to drive, but smart enough to know it shouldn't drive. It may be death by a thousand cuts.
Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by snotrockets on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @05:51PM (#30170730)
Achieving the “don't own a car” future doesn't require automation, as much as urbanization. No car technology would help reduce the climate crisis we're facing, unless that technology eliminates private transit (as in rides not shared by multiple people, not as in private ownership of said transit)
Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by vidarh on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @06:08PM (#30170962)
As someone without a drivers license or a car, automation would still be wildly useful in driving down the cost of occasional journeys to locations inconvenient to serve with public transport to a point where it makes living without a car an option for more people.

You're right, though, that the challenge is that it also makes it easier for everyone to opt for cars over mass transit.

Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by yupper32 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @05:32PM (#30170493)
Oh sure, L4 within the decade for companies other than Tesla, totally doable. You could argue Waymo and Cruise are already there with geo limitations.

But Tesla within a year with no lidar? Yeah, no. Not happening.

Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by waffle_maniac on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @05:09PM (#30170205)
“I would be shocked if we do not achieve Full Self-Driving safer than human this year. I would be shocked.”

-- Elon Musk

He set the milestone.

Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by yupper32 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @05:13PM (#30170247)
Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by detaro on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @05:11PM (#30170227)
He told investors the same thing last year. Elon milestones mean nothing.
Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by umeshunni on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @09:03PM (#30172605)
What comes first? Tesla FSD or the year of the Linux Desktop
Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by ma2rten on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @10:28PM (#30173312)
Tesla has not fallen behind, it's rapidly catching up. It's just not that easy to catch up if you are 10 years behind the competition and handicap yourself with inferior hardware. Maybe you are right and Karpathy will get fired, but at that point it's time to sell your tesla stock.
Re:Cruise is opening driverless cars to the public in San Fr... by Fricken on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:59AM (#30175317)
I think you have to be ahead first before you can fall behind. Tesla never had that problem.