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Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by robertlagrant on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @09:23AM (#30162755)
> No, nuclear plants are regularly taken offline for weather related reasons.

Do you have a source for this?

Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by sampo on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @09:54AM (#30163234)
Nuclear plants use water from a local river, or sea, for cooling. Or some plants use air and have cooling towers. Nuclear plants are also tightly regulated by law. So there is a limit on how warm cooling water the plant is allowed, as per environmental regulations, to release into the river, or to the sea.

If weather gets hot, the temperature of the incoming cooling water gets warmer, too. And having to operate within the limits of the maximum allowed temperature for the outgoing cooling water, the plant may have to regulate its power output, or maybe entirely pause operation.

The temperature limit is mostly a legal one: There is concern about the environmental effects of releasing warmer water to the water bodies. From an engineering point of view, the plant would probably be able to operate, and just release warmer water.

Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by robertlagrant on Thursday February 03, 2022 @06:34AM (#30191186)
I'm not debating the mechanisms; I'm after a source that hopefully reliably cites the frequency and severity of it. Wind and solar power drop to zero regularly, as we would expect. If nuclear does the same, then the comparison is totally valid. If it's something else then the comparison becomes less valid or invalid.
Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by ZeroGravitas on Thursday February 03, 2022 @07:43AM (#30191710)
Why are you so keen to defend one particular power production method on one narrow stat?

This isn't a game of Top Trumps where you need to find any one stat that's higher than your opponents to declare victory.

Nuclear has to be better than wind and solar and hydro and batteries and everything else (demand response, better insulation, undersea grid connectors etc.) all working together across a wide range of metrics to find a place in a modern grid.

It is failing at this. The alternatives are cheaper, better, greener, safer, quicker to build.

Narrowly focusing on one tiny aspect does not change this big picture reality.

Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by robertlagrant on Thursday February 10, 2022 @04:58PM (#30293270)
I'm not keen to defend anything. I know this can seem unusual, but I'm just trying to understand the situation as well as possible. I'm not treating any option as a team to blindly cheer on.

The problem with what you're saying is that to supply peak power at all times could require building capacity in each method to supply full power, in case the others all fall to zero power. And even then, you hope that they don't all fall to zero, I guess.

Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by missedthecue on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @12:21PM (#30165856)
Why can't they just refrigerate the water before releasing? Nothing too crazy just a few degrees. Run it through cooling pipes are something to dissipate the heat.
Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by pfdietz on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @02:55PM (#30168272)
They could evaporate some of the water to cool the rest. This is why many nuclear plants in the US have cooling towers. But cooling towers consume water, and are fairly expensive.
Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by niea_11 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @10:19AM (#30163620)
I found this article : https://energyforhumanity.org/en/resources/reports-en/effect...

Curtailment of nuclear power due to periods of extreme heat has had the effect of reducing European nuclear power output by approx. 0.1% since the year 2000. For France specifically, which with its many inland river-sited plants has been the worst hit country, the corresponding figure is approximately 0.15%

Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by robertlagrant on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @11:26AM (#30164801)
Thanks. This doesn't sound appropriate to compare with how weather affects most renewables.
Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by formerly_proven on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @09:25AM (#30162787)
Every summer in France
Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by infamia on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @09:55AM (#30163243)
That sounds good, predictability is what you want when designing a power grid.
Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by throwaway894345 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @09:40AM (#30163008)
Source? Is this inherent in all nuclear plants, or only in certain designs?
Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by mikeyouse on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @10:08AM (#30163448)
It happens all the time;

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2019-07-0....

> Now, increasingly, more frequent heat waves and hotter average temperatures are making those waters so warm that engineers are concerned that it can't do the job. Analysts say climate change is to blame.

> In little-noticed but publicly available reports to regulators, nuclear plant owners revealed that unusually hot temperatures last year forced them to reduce the plants' electricity output more than 30 times – most often in the summer, when demand from nuclear plants is at its highest. In 2012, such incidents occurred at least 60 times. At one plant in Connecticut a reactor was taken offline for nearly two weeks when temperatures in the Long Island Sound surged past 75 degrees.

It's not like you can just change the legislation to say "allow hotter discharge water" though -- the plants' very engineering criteria is being impacted. Warmer water has lower absorptive capacity to cool the primary loop so things get dicey when temps increase outside the design specification.

Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by b3orn on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @09:44AM (#30163075)
All designs that take water from rivers and return it there. There usually is a regulation for the maximum water temperature in the rivers, so during the summer they can't heat up the water as much, leading to lowered energy output to the point where they have to shutdown some or all reactors of a plant.
Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by throwaway894345 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @09:54AM (#30163235)
That doesn’t imply that nuclear plants regularly get close to this threshold nor that it’s common for all nuclear plants of this type (consider 2 identical plants positioned on differently-sized rivers: the larger river will be able to absorb more heat than the smaller river, ergo reliability of this sort varies).
Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by mikeyouse on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @10:11AM (#30163484)
It's not just the river's ability to absorb the heat, it's also the plant's design criteria. The river water is the coolant in the secondary loop, warm water obviously has less capacity to absorb heat, so the plant will either get hotter (not great!) or will have to slow down the reaction to produce less heat (also not great during the summer when demand is the highest!). This isn't just an environmental concern but a design problem.
Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by maccard on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @09:44AM (#30163070)
Not OP but I google dit and found this [0] from almost 20 years ago. No mention of it being every summer though, and it was during a heat wave that disproportionately affected france.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/aug/12/france.nuclear

Re:Europe Is Losing Nuclear Power Just When It Needs Energy by drran on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @05:32PM (#30170498)
In my country (Ukraine), 3 nuclear power plants out of 15 are competing with cities for fresh water because of drought.