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Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by altcognito on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @12:39PM (#30074952)
Wage gains are not being treated the same as investment gains. It's not like Bezos is taking home an hourly rate. Everybody at the real top is doing quite, quite well.

That's why the concentration of wealth into a very few hands at the top marches on, not because of "wages".

Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by georgyo on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @12:52PM (#30075198)
Your touching on a much more complicated subject about reporting.

If someone one owns a billion dollars of stock foobar, and foobar grows 10x, then that person is now worth 10B and "made" 9B. However they have not sold anything so while they can be reported as making 9B, they are none of it was directly cash and not taxed; at least not yet.

However, while Bezos "only" has a salary/bonus of 1.5 million a year, it is very common for executives to have total comp packages in the 10s to hundreds of millions a year. These can easily be converted into hourly rate equivalents because there is only so many hours you can work a year.

Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by cwkoss on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @12:58PM (#30075303)
The billionaire stock owner in your example's economic power has increased by 10x regardless though. They can borrow against that money and those funds aren't taxed - so they can effectively spend it without taxation.

They can cycle debt to avoid ever having to sell a single share for their entire life, at rates more favorable than any middle class person has access to.

We can fix our tax code with legislation to address this loophole, our politicians just don't have the will to do this currently (largely because many of them amass fortunes through stocks and insider tips, IMO).

Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by mullingitover on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:43PM (#30076029)
I think there's kind of a tacit understanding with business owners and legislators that if you collect taxes, you're good. Bezos and Musk might not pay taxes personally, but they oversee operations that result in payments of sales taxes, payroll taxes, employee income taxes, property taxes, etc, in vast amounts.

The historical critiques of class warfare have some good points, because there's obviously a privileged class here that's doing really well on the backs of labor, and this privileged class can afford to buy (and let's face it, it's really bribe) itself ever more privileges for a very tiny share of their wealth.

Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by beambot on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:30PM (#30075867)
Wealth != income. What you're advocating isn't changing a loophole, it's developing an entirely new tax (wealth tax) to supplant the old (income tax). It helps to be explicit.
Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by cwkoss on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:51PM (#30076179)
The loophole is that you can get $1M deposited into your bank account, but because it's technically a loan it isn't considered income. This doesn't require a wealth tax, (and getting ex. a home loan shouldn't be taxed as income), but being able to utilize wealth to get a pile of cash that is not taxed is effectively untaxed income IMO.

A wealth tax could address this, but perhaps there are other legislative options, like (partial?) realization of capital gains when used as loan collateral in the income tax code, or something like that. I'd prefer that latter, as it seems more direct.

But I don't know the specific best way to address this, I'm no a tax expert. But, I think its pretty clear that this scheme is an abuse of the system and should be remedied in some way.

Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by beambot on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @02:52PM (#30077094)
This type of loan is really just a form of margin -- the same thing you can get at most stock brokerages (e.g. Schwab, TD Ameritrade, Interactive Brokers, etc). It seems almost impossible to distinguish the purpose of the loans -- e.g. I know people who use these loans to fund primary residence purchases because they lack income for FHA mortgages.

In fact, unless you have a cash-only account, you likely use margin every time you buy & sell a stock. Technically, stock transactions don't settle for 2-3 days. When your brokerage fronts you the shares to immediately buy, sell, or transfer funds, it's all margin under the hood. It gets even more complex once you get into options, swaps, and other esoteric financial instruments.

TLDR: It's simple in principle, but very complex in practice. Further complicating IRS rules is unlikely to win the whack-a-mole competition -- especially when IRS auditors under-target the ultra wealthy to begin with.

Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by Stupulous on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:28PM (#30075825)
I assume they borrow against the after-tax value of the stock, because it will be taxed before being paid back(?) I don't know if that is significant, but I figure it's worth noting.
Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by zeusk on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:33PM (#30075920)
No that’s not how it works. Infact, you can get a margin loan at 0.75% interest from ibkr if you hold more than 50k usd of stock for half of its value.

Of course, if that value drops you’ll get margin called for more collateral

Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by Stupulous on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:50PM (#30076177)
Half of its value is less than after-tax value, which is at least the initial investment + 63% of the gains.
Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by zeusk on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @02:57PM (#30077164)
Maybe I didn’t phrase it right for you,

Unaccredited investors (us, commoners) have access to margin loans for up to 50% value of account.

Accredited investors have access to portfolio margin which can be up to 90% of mark to market value.

That’s nothing to say of any custom financial instruments that banks might come up with to save bezos any taxes. Think swaps.

Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by yc-kraln on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:58PM (#30076298)
The thing is, when most of your money is in illiquid assets (stock, in this case, or houses, etc.) you can reliably get an extremely low interest rate loan against those assets. What does that mean? Let's say you have 10B equity in a company, and you want to buy a used 747 Jumbo Jet--a steal, at $500,000. You only have about $100k liquid cash on you at the moment. No problem! Go to a banker, take an extremely inexpensive loan out against your 10B (think less than 1% interest), and buy your jet. Because it's not income, it's not taxed. But yes, these people do actually have access to that much purchasing power, it's not just abstract numbers.
Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by yibg on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:04PM (#30075393)
AMZN is down 10+% over the last year so not sure about that one.
Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by tfigment on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:15PM (#30075603)
His ex-wife is shovelling money to charities faster than anyone before and still made more than she gave out.
Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by freewilly1040 on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:36PM (#30075958)
He's got elite financial engineers at his disposal, it's highly doubtful his fortune has declined in lockstep with the AMZN share price.
Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by jonnycomputer on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @12:55PM (#30075263)
There are the rich and then there are the really rich, and then there are the unbelievably rich. I'll happily call a family earning 500k/y on two salaries in a small town where a million dollar home is literally a mansion on a hill "rich". Because they are. They just aren't as rich as the Trumps or Bezoss of the world.
Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by KerrAvon on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:17PM (#30075644)
What do you intend to connote by saying someone is "rich," though? What does it signify?

If the definition of "rich" is "independently wealthy," that family certainly doesn't meet it. They still have to work for a living.

If it means you never have to worry about where the next meal is coming from or losing the roof over your head, sure, a lot of people are "rich." And maybe this is better than 90% of humanity does, but it's still not a reasonable first world standard for being "rich" IMHO.

Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by pessimizer on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @02:28PM (#30076750)
> They still have to work for a living.

No they don't. They could live in a median dwelling with a median income indefinitely on the interest of what they've saved over the past few years.

If you're saying that they have to work for the living that they're accustomed to, so does Musk.

Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by jonnycomputer on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:47PM (#30076120)
Their modes of thought, their concerns and worries, their expectations, their assumptions of what is possible, their habits, their identities, all different.
Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by gamechaynes on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @02:50PM (#30077069)
She said: 'I am loosing every time!'

He answered: 'No, you are often winning, but when you lose you lose way too high.'

(-;

Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by jonnycomputer on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:44PM (#30076063)
What does not calling them rich signify?
Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by bushbaba on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:10PM (#30075515)
It hit me when I saw a 3MM home in Tampa vs 3MM in Bay Area. I think many’s definition of money is skewed from living in hcol cities.
Re:The Great Resignation? More Like the Great Renegotiation by sseagull on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:43PM (#30076039)
One of my favorite quotes on the topic:

"Shaq is rich. The white man that signs his check, is wealthy." [Chris Rock]