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Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by PragmaticPulp on Monday January 24, 2022 @12:41PM (#30061033)
The charging infrastructure, or lack thereof, is a huge obstacle.

The US is a big place and an EV is still a risky bet if you ever have to drive long distances. Available charging networks are still kind of unpredictable. Getting advertised charging rates is rare.

Most people I know want an EV, but they’re keenly aware that the next generation or two of EVs and charging networks will be substantially better. Waiting a few iterations is not a bad strategy.

Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by treesknees on Monday January 24, 2022 @01:04PM (#30061392)
I have family in a very rural area, we drive one-way 500+ miles, ~9 hours, several times a year to see them. In my ICE SUV I have to stop twice for gas assuming I start with a full tank.

Trying to do that trip in an electric vehicle, in order to account for charging stations, would add 4 stops and around 2 hours for charging. Tesla's trips webpage also estimates that I'd save...$13 in fuel compared to gas.

The cars are more expensive, the number of required stopping locations is increased while severely restricted, and overall I don't save much money charging compared to buying gasoline. Overall it doesn't add up, and I think a lot of Americans see it this way as well.

In the US the automobile has historically been marketed and used as a tool of freedom, independence, mobility, etc. It's hard to market something as a provider of mobility when in my mind I see an orange extension cord tethering it to the cities and metro areas.

Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by rnk on Monday January 24, 2022 @01:41PM (#30061955)
Electric cars have their limits, just like a small toyota or honda car won't be right to pull your big boat of travel trailer. You need to find charging along your route, and you don't want to arrive with only a tiny range left and be stuck with slow charging. But that very rarely happens to me today driving all around the northwest to ski, go to canada (precovid at least ;-)), Banff, Oregon, Idaho, you can just drive there.

I'm curious about the route, because that's not that far. The first gen lucid air cars have a 500 mile range. That max range vehicle costs about 160k at the moment. Many cheaper cars are 300+ miles today, even the rivian truck has an epa range of 314 miles (and this is far from the best long range car). Tesla has 400 mile range cars today (latest model s at 396 miles), model 3 is 350 miles w awd.

Tesla superchargers make charging easy and fast generally for the entire area, with that distance and a tesla or other current gen car, and allowing 1 or 2 20 minute charging stops it should be easy to go that distance. I'd consider trying one of the websites that let you pick a route and input your car and they suggest distance and charging locations needed (e.g., https://aBetterRoutePlanner.com). With tesla you usually pay around the price of electricity; unfortuatenly electrify america charges double or triple local power prices. It's not that hard for me to go anywhere I want in my 7 year old model s.

Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by treesknees on Monday January 24, 2022 @02:01PM (#30062266)
I just tried that site and set it to "fewest stops", it dropped from 4 to 3 charges for a Tesla model 3, and reduced charging time to a little bit over an hour. That's not as bad as Tesla's planning site was showing me.

I also tried adjusting the car type to a Ford Mach-e, and I only have to stop twice as long as I drive a 5-hour stretch at 55 MPH max. The speed limit on this stretch is 75 MPH.

I do understand that different vehicles have different functionality and targeted use-cases. In this case, I'm not pulling a boat or a trailer. I'm "just driving" which is a pretty standard thing to want to do in a car. My point still stands, if I need to spend $160k to drive 500 miles in an electric vehicle, I'd rather go buy a $40k ICE vehicle that can do it with fewer stops.

Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by tracker1 on Monday January 24, 2022 @02:32PM (#30062719)
The bigger thing to me is the time for the stops. I can generally fill up, go to the restroom and grab a meal in well under 20m with ICE. Depending on the trip, I'd have to sit for another half hour or more.

My last Vegas trip, one of the stops near a charging center had several cars waiting for chargers. I don't think I'd enjoy that at all.

I've thought about an EV for local commuting, but the costs just don't seem worth it. Let alone even less ability for independent repair or maintaining. And dropping $15-20k every few years on a new set of batteries is definitely less than appealing.

Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by dont__panic on Monday January 24, 2022 @12:54PM (#30061221)
Personally a hard blocker for me is the charging networks -- I really, really, really do not want to invest in a car whose charging network languishes while I'm still relying on that car day-to-day. Tesla's network should be forced open to all EVs and a common charger standard should be mandated going forward. Until that happens I'm not touching EVs with a ten foot pole.
Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by Tagbert on Monday January 24, 2022 @04:14PM (#30064130)
There already is a standard charger in the US, CCS. All fast chargers installed in the last few years have been either Tesla or CCS. All non-Tesla models introduces in the last several years have had CCS faster chargers. Early on Nissan was promoting CHADEMO but that plug type is now deprecated in the US. There are still also J772 level 2 chargers for low speed charging such as at your house, but all vehicles support that as well.

It is true that other markets have their own standards, China and Japan for instance but the number of cars moved between markets is very small.

In Europe, Tesla has switched to CCS. In the US, Tesla has committed to letting CCS cars charge on its network. The CCS network in the US is growing quickly and is in the same general size as Teslas. Thing are coming together.

Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by muzika on Monday January 24, 2022 @07:24PM (#30066173)
Except that CCS in US is not the same things as CCS in Europe.
Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by rnk on Monday January 24, 2022 @01:43PM (#30062001)
Why should tesla be forced to open their network? They had the foresight to build it out ahead of time. I think it would be better to incentivize other networks to do better and compete with tesla.
Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by bdcravens on Monday January 24, 2022 @01:51PM (#30062104)
Doesn't matter; Tesla has already said they would, and started the pilot program a couple of months ago. (not in the US yet however)

https://www.tesla.com/support/non-tesla-supercharging

But to answer your bigger point: others networks aren't incentivized yet to push harder to compete. The demand just isn't there yet. For EVs to be successful in the US, there needs to be more than one successful company. This is a goal that is bigger than capitalism, and sometimes you have to work at odds with capitalism to accomplish those kind of goals.

Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by rnk on Monday January 24, 2022 @03:06PM (#30063242)
There's already more than one successful company, see vw & ea. Tesla only opened their network in europe where they have the same plug experimentally. In the us it looked like they might open their network by putting dual charging plugs at superchargers if they were getting money from the bbb, but that money seems remote now. If telsa started building ccs charging networks in the us that were about the same as tesla superchargers except with that plug, they'd crush the competition because they charge market rates for their electricity and fix them when they are broken - this is beyond the capability the vw-owned electrify america.
Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by dont__panic on Monday January 24, 2022 @01:53PM (#30062140)
Why should gas stations be forced to open their networks? Why should AT&T home internet let you sign up for Comcast or Google Fiber? Why should Verizon let you take a device you bought through them to T-Mobile? Why should Edge let you download Firefox?

I'll give you a few options: consumer choice, freedom, interoperability, less physical waste?

Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by eternityforest on Monday January 24, 2022 @01:00PM (#30061306)
That's one thing I really don't like about this country. We don't really push ahead aggressively with tech, it takes decades.

When we know something could be done, but currently isn't practical, instead of saying "Nope, we are building this charging network and we will have better batteries within 5 years", we say "Maybe someday, but right now we need gas".

We judge technology based on whether it works and is economical right now, even when there's a clear road map to making it work.

People still talk about whether the electric grid can handle the electric cars, and how windmills and solar are forcing coal offline, like as if we don't know how to upgrade things and build natural gas plants.

For a given individual, waiting a few generations makes sense, but it would be cool if big companies were just a little less obsessed with slow iterative development and rollout of tech that we pretty much already know how to do.

Everyone says batteries aren't sustainable and Lithium mining is bad, but the point isn't to make a billion lithium cars, everything now is just a prototype.

Building these missing technologies like energy storage should be as big of a deal as the moon landing was. The kind of "Make it work even if it costs 100 billion because our future depends on it" thing we just don't see anymore.

Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by tracker1 on Monday January 24, 2022 @02:43PM (#30062876)
Well, not everyone has or can afford to spend $100k on something that doesn't really work for them but might in 5 years.

In the end, even if using the power of government there are finite people, time and resources. You have to choose what to spend on and what not to.

I know it's horrible that we don't live in a utopian society.

Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by eternityforest on Wednesday January 26, 2022 @06:28AM (#30084238)
Yeah it totally makes sense from an average individual standpoint, that's currently an insane amount of money in a world where lots can't afford any car at all.

But it seems like it took a long time for even the big companies to fully trust that they would even be possible, and even the rich people looking for expensive toys didn't want them all that much till recently.

Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by legerdemain on Monday January 24, 2022 @02:01PM (#30062260)
American culture and popular political sentiment is rarely about supporting the next generation and fostering new opportunities. It's almost always about shoring up the last of your resources as you live out the end of your life.

Think about it: financial support for elderly homeowners, overspending on end-of-life healthcare, political influence wielded by dead or dying industries, NIMBYism... People in the US firmly believe that government is for the old, holding back global changes so that old people can live the lives they are used to.

Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by jiveturkey42 on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @10:38AM (#30072979)
This was certainly evident with some covid restrictions. Hamper the education and mental development of healthy children to protect the elderly at all costs
Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by rnk on Monday January 24, 2022 @01:45PM (#30062014)
The grid has held up just fine. We are hardly even taking advantage of the easy things like charging cars mostly at night when there is excess power. Ignore texas' failing network, that's their own fault for not requiring cold and hot weather power requirements.
Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by LinuxBender on Monday January 24, 2022 @02:41PM (#30062848)
I believe the concern is about growth. If a majority of people switched to EV the grid would be overwhelmed. [1] It is estimated that by 2030 about $125 billion would be required to upgrade the power infrastructure. That is based on just one study there are probably better ones.

[1] - https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/10/13/electric-...

Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by toomuchtodo on Monday January 24, 2022 @04:15PM (#30064157)
You left out some context from the cited study [1].

> Total annual fuel savings of $12 billion/year relative to Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicles translates to an estimated societal payback of 8.6 years to cover the costs of electric sector investments (7.2 years if GHG benefits are included)

That's quite the ROI, and arguably the spending must take place regardless to decarbonize electrical generation and transmission.

[1] https://www.brattle.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/19421_bra... (Slide 4, Key Findings)

Re:The US Refuses to Fall in Love with Electric Cars by LinuxBender on Monday January 24, 2022 @05:40PM (#30065078)
Agreed. It will have to be done one way or another I just meant that we couldn't all just switch to EV's today without an overhaul of the system.