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Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by causi on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @03:22AM (#29991175)
I am actively trying to learn about the cultural heritage I was denied

Speaking as someone who is also 1/32, same as you, people like us need to stop pretending having a sliver of genetic material somehow entitles us to a "cultural heritage". 1/32 is five generations. That's three percent. For comparison, the average European-American's DNA is 3.5% African. White people are blacker than you and me are Native American.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by vanderZwan on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @04:41AM (#29991655)
I think mixing of socially constructed races and genetic ethnicities is a recipe for disaster. The only thing the latter is good for IMO is to highlight how the former is a social construct.

With that in mind, tying cultural heritage to "where did my close ancestors come from" seems like a more sensible approach than genetic percentages, since that actually connects to a social context.

Having said that, cherry picking one out of thirty-two great-great-great-grandparents over the thirty-one others sounds pretty absurd. But I'm not from North America so I probably miss some social context to understand the logic behind that.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by causi on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @05:00AM (#29991746)
But I'm not from North America so I probably miss some social context to understand the logic behind that.

It's a combinational effect of many minor causes stacking upon one another. People wanting to feel special. The feeling modern society is destroying the world and the sense Native American culture is the opposite of that. The mild but persistent impression that white heritage isn't something to celebrate or positively self-identify with.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by jjeaff on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @06:12AM (#29992243)
What exactly is "white heritage" anyway? It only brings to mind white supremacy to me.

But I do celebrate my Finnish heritage, as well as my Irish and English ancestry.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by Ourgon on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @10:09AM (#29994531)
White supremacy as an ideology is as poisonous as black supremacy or any other "ethnic" supremacy.

White supremacy as the label being used by "progressives" has nothing to do with the ideology other than in sharing a name. The label is just one of the many applied to those who dare to divert from the narrative, often used in situations where the "progressive" has talked herself into a corner from where there is no getting out other than by creating a path of labels to escape on.

I think it is better to only use the term "white supremacy" when describing the former. Don't use it as a label for something you find distasteful, only use it as a term for a specific ideology. The same goes for words like "fascism", "racism", all the "-phobias" and more. Take back the language from those [1] who have used it to drive their own narrative.

[1] https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-derridean/

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by jjeaff on Thursday January 27, 2022 @09:21PM (#30109990)
No, I literally mean that the phrase "white heritage" brings to mind old fashioned kkk style white supremacy, not the white fragility style supremacy.

Heritage is actually a very common word used in modern klan and klan adjacent groups as they are very concerned with the racial purity of their lineage as well as the fact that they yearn for "the good 'ol days" of the antebellum south.

For hundreds of years, the idea of "whiteness" in America was used primarily to identify a group that for the most part had nothing exclusively in common except as that of oppressors.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by causi on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @06:30AM (#29992355)
What exactly is "white heritage" anyway?

Precisely. The breadth of Native American genetic and cultural diversity was every bit as large as that of Europeans, and compressing it into a single category has the same problems as compressing all the cultures constituting "white" into a single category. If your connection to your tiny fraction of native ancestry is so insubstantial you can't be more specific than "someone from north or south america", you're unfortunately just not a member of that culture.

Many white Americans are unsatisfied with not having a specific ancestral identity and hence play these games with distant ancestors.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by vanderZwan on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @08:47AM (#29993566)
I don't know if you realize this, but complaining that "compressing all the cultures constituting "white" into a single category" is a problem, and then talking about "white Americans" in the next sentence as if that is a single cultural label is a self-contradiction.

The complaint two comments up about the "mild but persistent impression that white heritage isn't something to celebrate or positively self-identify with" is an even stronger one.

EDIT: downvote all you want, it doesn't take away the contradiction of insisting on hanging on to an identity of "whiteness" while denying the history behind it.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by causi on Thursday January 20, 2022 @01:14AM (#30005412)
"European" isn't a culture but that doesn't stop Europeans from being a definable category of people. "Blue-eyed people" isn't a culture either but I can refer to people with blue eyes as a group.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by krapp on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @06:26AM (#29992329)
"white" as a claim of culture or heritage, only exists in the context of white supremacy. The concept of "whiteness" was invented during the days of the slave trade as a means of establishing racial classification and hierarchy - to contrast the superior "white" race with inferior "non-white" races, which is why it traditionally excluded people like the Irish and Italians, along with the obvious African peoples traded as slaves, who unlike the former groups can never "ascend" to "whiteness" no matter how much political or cultural capital they accumulate.

In the modern day, it has lost much of its explicitly racist connotations (except, obviously, when explicitly used in the original context by racists,) but just tends to mean "a person who looks white (until proven otherwise)" or "of European descent," the former of which isn't really related to culture, and the latter being so vague as to be useless as a cultural referent.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by ecocentrik on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @10:23AM (#29994760)
I'd go further and say that "whiteness" is just a form of the otherisum. A mechanism for establishing in and out groups to determine the potential for favorable and unfavorable social relationships. Whiteness is generally defined as people that look like, speak like and behave like a greater homogeneous population group. Each homogeneous group sets their own measure (bar) for inclusion. For instance. not all light skinned Europeans meet the standard for inclusion in small American towns. In general, the smaller and more homogeneous the population, the smaller the genetic ingroup.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by maxwell_xander on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @11:38AM (#29995965)
>"white" as a claim of culture or heritage, only exists in the context of white supremacy. The concept of "whiteness" was invented during the days of the slave trade as a means of establishing racial classification and hierarchy - to contrast the superior "white" race with inferior "non-white" races

Isn't black exactly the same thing? A completely madeup racial category invented by white slavers to conveniently deny a group their humanity? And isn't it further possible that, after these racial groups were invented, actually real cultural identities began forming around them to the point where the invented categories had reified into something kinda real?

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by vanderZwan on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @04:33PM (#30000484)
> to the point where the invented categories had reified into something kinda real

The "kinda" in that sentence is doing a lot of heavy lifting. It's a "real" social construct. It's not "real" in the sense of representing "real" human nature, or a "real" order of how things ought to be, which is how that social construct is wielded in practice.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by klipt on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @05:16PM (#30001116)
Right, plenty of things are social constructs. Race, gender, laws, money. Arguing over whether these things are real or not is, I think, missing the point. The real argument should be over whether they're beneficial concepts or not.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by cat199 on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @07:45AM (#29992886)
I get the problem with claiming it to sound 'exotic' or whatever - exactly as you mention - this is 'entitlement' to sound special - but -

Thinking differently -

5 generations is also (assuming childbirth at 25 and not carefully auditing for off-by-ones):

1 generation of 1:1 mix, 4 generations ago (b. 1897)

1 generation of 1:2 mix, 3 generations ago (b. 1922)

1 generation of 1:3 mix, 2 generations ago (b. 1947)

1 generation of 1:4 mix, 1 generations ago (b. 1972)

1 generation of 1:5 mix, now. (b. 1997)

In other words - 50% of your parenting influence descends from 4 generations of mixed marriages, and the entire mixed lineage begins approx ~100 years ago where it certainly would be a huge factor in daily life. It's quite possible that you may have even met the original couple or their immediate children, and very likely that you met or had extended contact with the 25% generation who in turn almost certainly was extremely impacted by the preceding 2 generations.

Pretty sure there is some cultural trace either overtly or in the form of inherited scars.

The reason many mixed don't know much about their fraction is because their ancestors were put in indian schools and married off to anglo settlers or any number of other far worse 'ethnic cleansing' atrocities. Whatever in-depth discussion remained was likely suppressed or downplayed to facilitate assimilation, leaving only hints and impressions behind in the people. At this point there is no way for them to know anything more about their past even if they wanted to.

pretending it's nothing only makes it worse and grows the divide to the past - which itself is a shift away from native views of history and connectedness to ancestors

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by Retric on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @05:28AM (#29991933)
What do you identify with if every ethnic group in your ancestry is ~1/32 or less? It’s not like European was a single ethnicity. Roma isn’t Basque isn’t Bashkir isn’t Jewish etc.

Of course Native American isn’t a single ethnicity either, but you might be able to trace that back to say Inuit and actually have a specific culture to identify with. Where being say 1/16th black tells you little to nothing about the culture of that part of your ancestry.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by causi on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @06:16AM (#29992272)
You identify with your real identity. Unless your genetic heritage has an actual, unmistakable impact on your life (e.g., being black, being clearly Native American, etc) it's no more relevant to who you are than your eye color. It might be nice to be a member of a distinct ethno-cultural group but nobody is entitled to it, and if your ethnic identity is so ambiguous that it's possible for you to be mistaken about it then it isn't all that relevant to your life. I can point to a genetic test and say "Here are my fractions from Irish, German, Native American" but pretending any of them represent a greater influence on my identity than "ambiguously-white American man" would make me a play-acting fool.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by bagacrap on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @09:17AM (#29993822)
If you must identify with some group, there is regional variation of lived experience within the US. Growing up in New York is a good deal different than growing up in San Diego. The outlooks and practices of people in that region form culture. It may not be an ancient culture or associated with genetic trends, but at least it's something you've actually experienced.

That said, I don't like when people ask me where I grew up because I immediately feel judged for something I had no say in.