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Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by CryptoPunk on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @07:22AM (#29978027)
>>Let’s start with this: Venmo is a free service to transfer dollars, and bitcoin transfers are not free.

Is the author really unaware of the horror stories of Venmo and PayPal freezing customer accounts?

Articles like this want a return to serfdom, under the control of officialdom. There is no other conceivable reason why someone would not want people to have at least the option of taking custody over their own money, in a form more useful than physical cash.

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by smt88 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @07:53AM (#29978279)
> There is no other conceivable reason why someone would not want people to have at least the option of taking custody over their own money

You're attacking a straw man here. The author doesn't argue for eliminating the blockchain or crypto assets.

His thesis is that blockchain hasn't gained significant traction (for anything other than speculation, especially as people panic about USD inflation) because people don't want to decentralize trust. They inherently like institutions and want institutions they can trust.

> in a form more useful than physical cash

Literally the whole point of the article is to argue that Bitcoin (and other crypto "currency") is less useful than cash and less appealing to consumers. He is also arguing that this is inherent to the technology itself and will never change.

Nothing is ever going to replace fiat if it's deflationary, and no one is going to "invest" (i.e. buy and keep) a digital fiat replacement unless it's deflationary. It's a catch-22 that digital assets can't solve.

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by timeon on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @07:46AM (#29978211)
> Is the author really unaware of the horror stories of Venmo and PayPal freezing customer accounts?

Can as example coinbase do the same?

> want a return to serfdom

From my point of view serfdom is the (block)chain. Only people with enough stake or those who pays are in control.

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by Qasaur on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @07:51AM (#29978262)
>From my point of view serfdom is the (block)chain. Only people with enough stake or those who pays are in control.

I disagree with this but even if one assumes this to be the case, I'd much rather prefer a monetary system subject to the control of free market forces rather than the modern monetary system which is subject to a small group of unelected and unaccountable technocrats operating under the feeble assumption of central bank independence and whose power is extended through coercion and not voluntary association.

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by kemotep on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @07:58AM (#29978325)
If crypto replaces fiat can you really say it is voluntary still if you need to pay your taxes in bitcoin or whatever currency your government wants to collect to pay for things?
Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by goesnowhere on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @09:01AM (#29979183)
Look up wildcat banking. Being "subject to the control of free market forces" is not a good thing for working class folks who only hold onto currency.
Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by CryptoPunk on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @09:24AM (#29979542)
Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by bko on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @08:15AM (#29978535)
> For instance, you can't use Venmo if you're under 18 (sorry, kids). And several Venmo users told BuzzFeed News that the company suspended their accounts and held their funds after they wrote silly captions to friends or tried to sell something to a friend — like a used computer. [0]

Lots more examples in the article.

Also they regularly kick off sex workers [1]

[0] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/leticiamiranda/people-a...

[1] https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/paypal-and-venmo-are-...

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by egeozcan on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @08:22AM (#29978621)
If the government decides paid sex work is illegal, it'd also be hard to make transactions for it via Bitcoin.

If you think taking your wallet (the key) and running away with it is an option, then how is it better than using cash?

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by bko on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @08:55AM (#29979089)
It's not that its illegal. It's that its "discouraged" via arbitrary regulation usually under the guise of money laundering or high charge backs. For instance, cam girls are legal in the US, but they have a difficulty getting a payment provider Same is true for states with recreational marijuana.

Cryptocurrency also solves the problem of charge-backs. Venmo and PayPal gives a sense of finality, but it actually takes days to transfer the funds. That's why there are so many paypal scams on craigslist

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by egeozcan on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @04:07PM (#29985824)
> the problem of charge-backs

Charge-backs aren't there to purely annoy/scam sellers, you know.

> difficulty getting a payment provider

Because there are too many money laundering attempts via transactions in that industry. If you want to deal with the stuff Paypal/Venmo/etc doesn't want to deal with, go ahead.

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by defaultprimate on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @07:34AM (#29978110)
>Articles like this want a return to serfdom, under the control of officialdom

Ironic thing to state given the reality of hash power distribution and supply of bitcoin that actually moves compared to the total

>in a form more useful than physical cash.

Something that is never used equivalently to physical cash cannot be more useful than it. Basically nothing is priced in bitcoin or crypto

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by latexr on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @08:35AM (#29978788)
> There is no other conceivable reason why

Perhaps there is no other reason you can (or are willing to) conceive, but that does not make it fact.

A major issue with cryptocurrency and blockchain discussions is that vocal proponents speak as if they’re arbiters of truth with perfect knowledge of the the world and everyone who doesn’t subscribe to their view is an envious dunce. They speak in insults and talking points and seem to be more interested in sounding superior than having a conversation.

Humility and openness to be wrong are sorely lacking, but both are needed for a good-faith dialogue.

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by CryptoPunk on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @09:27AM (#29979584)
The only fundamental difference inherent to the respective designs of blockchains and traditional banking, is censorship resistance through genuine self-custody. The former is designed to provide this quality, and the latter is not.

So yes, I maintain people opposed to blockchain on principle - as opposed to problematic elements within the contemporary blockchain space - oppose individual liberty, which I characterize as desiring for the population to be under a technocratic form of serfdom.

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by defaultprimate on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:08AM (#29980251)
>blockchain on principle - as opposed to problematic elements within the contemporary blockchain space

The problems are impossible to decouple from "blockchain on principle" because the problems are intrinsic to the data structure itself, not "contemporary" approaches to the data structure implementation.

I am probably aligned with you politically (if not more radical in my libertarian sentiments), and I can sympathize with the stated goals of the crypto space/bitcoin whitepaper. The problem is that the technology and computer science behind it fails completely to deliver on these goals from both an abstract and practical perspective.

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by CryptoPunk on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:42AM (#29980776)
>>The problems are impossible to decouple from "blockchain on principle" because the problems are intrinsic to the data structure itself, not "contemporary" approaches to the data structure implementation.

If that is indeed the belief, then I concede that is an example of someone opposed to blockchains in principle, for a reason that is not an illiberal political agenda.

In any case, I like to think I am pretty well informed on blockchain technology, and I can't think of a single problem that currently afflicts the space, that cannot be solved through engineering a solution that does not involve moving away from the general blockchain architecture, or more generally, a solution that does not involve moving away from autonomous ledgers that use cryptoeconomics to maintain consensus.

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by defaultprimate on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:13AM (#29981311)
>a solution that does not involve moving away from autonomous ledgers that use cryptoeconomics to maintain consensus.

What are your proposed solutions to identified problems then?

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by CryptoPunk on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @07:07PM (#29988064)
Can you give me an example of a problem with blockchain, that you think is intractable, because it's inherent to the data structure?
Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by defaultprimate on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:34PM (#29990008)
Irreversible transactions
Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by CryptoPunk on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @09:30PM (#30003649)
A reversible layer on top is possible through smart contracts.
Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by defaultprimate on Thursday January 20, 2022 @08:46AM (#30008788)
A transaction is definitionally something that has been written to the blockchain, so no it isn't.

In the case of layered solutions, you're no longer using blockchain. If we want to count uncomitted transactions on a second layer as "reversible", that comes with a host of its own issues, and points out another intrinsic flaw of blockchain: incapable of fulfilling its philosophical purpose, and requires secondary solutions that violate the very core philosophy of the data structure in hopes of overcoming just one of its many issues.

https://cryptowhale.medium.com/why-the-bitcoin-lightning-net...

https://github.com/davidshares/Lightning-Network

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by CryptoPunk on Thursday January 20, 2022 @11:25PM (#30019142)
>>A transaction is definitionally something that has been written to the blockchain, so no it isn't.

You can have a smart contract that writes reversible transactions to the blockchain. This would mean that the smart contract imposes a delay for withdrawals, to allow time for any possible requests for reversals. There could optionally be an expedited wirhdrawal upon some set of authorities deeming the balance as finalized and not subject to any reversals.

>>requires secondary solutions that violate the very core philosophy of the data structure in hopes of overcoming just one of its many issues.

Even when you lose some of the benefits of blockchains, via secondary solutions like a reversible transaction smart contract, you retain some benefits, like:

* optionality, e.g. those who are fine with irreversible transactions are free to use them,

* permissionless market entry, e.g. any party is free to deploy their own 'reversible transaction' smart contract, giving payment consumers maximum choice

* stronger guarantees of the integrity of transaction processing, with transparency into any tampering, given the code that executes the transactions, along with the transaction itself, is publicly auditible

* debundling the provision of the different services that are required for transaction processing, by allowing transactions to be processed by immutably open smart contracts that no third party can later close off access to.

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by defaultprimate on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:12AM (#30025516)
>>You can have a smart contract that writes reversible transactions to the blockchain

No you can't. Once a smart contract is included in a block, it has finished executing and is irreversible. The transaction is irreversible, again, by definition.

>>Even when you lose some of the benefits of blockchains

So you're no longer using a blockchain.

I'm not interested in endless goalpost shifting.

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by CryptoPunk on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:29PM (#30032199)
>>Once a smart contract is included in a block, it has finished executing and is irreversible. The transaction is irreversible, again, by definition.

The transaction is irreversible, in the sense that it can't be removed from the blockchain, but the transfer from person A to person B can be made reversible, via a smart contract that doesn't allow person B to withdraw from the smart contract for a duration, during which time person A can effect a reversal transaction that would effectively undo the transfer.

>>So you're no longer using a blockchain.

In my example, you are using the blockchain in all cases. You are just using smart contracts in a way that reduces some of disadvantages of naive blockchain use (e.g. allowing a consumer to dispute a fraudulent charge) while giving up some of its advantages (e.g. reduced risk of charge backs for honest merchants).

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by fnord77 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @07:54AM (#29978288)
we've steadily moved away from serfdom under centralized government and banking for centuries.

yet suddenly because of the actions of a couple private companies, we're going to suddenly go back to serfdom? This makes no sense.

it's impossible to go back to serfdom - the economy is too large and diverse and people are too literate.

sorry, but this is just a doomer fantasy at best

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by CryptoPunk on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @07:10PM (#29988092)
Serfdom was abolished long before central banking emerged in the US.

The institutions created since the creation of the Federal Reserve, like a vast regulatory apparatus that closes off economic opportunities for the masses, and income taxation that abolishes privacy rights while seriously diminishing private property rights, have taken society toward serfdom.

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by pornel on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @08:56AM (#29979103)
You may not be realizing that PayPal's primary business is fraud detection and dispute resolution, not merely moving money. PayPal is layer above money transfers, providing insurance and reversibility of transactions that cryptocurrencies themselves don't have, and most don't want to have.
Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by CryptoPunk on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @09:31AM (#29979644)
PayPal is the closest thing to the cryptocurrency experience in traditional banking. The layer below it - banks and wire transfers - is even more susceptible to financial censorship.
Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by Nextgrid on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @07:42AM (#29978177)
Maliciously freezing accounts is a result of bad regulation. Overbearing regulation that on one hand encourage companies to be extremely risk-averse and prone to many false positives, and on the other hand not enough consumer-focused regulation that would allow consumers recourse in case things go wrong (false positive or outright malicious theft of funds).

Both can be resolved without blockchain.

Re:Blockchain is not only crappy technology but a bad vision... by fsflover on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @08:05AM (#29978418)
> Maliciously freezing accounts is a result of bad regulation.

No, it isn't: https://web.archive.org/web/20160221002005/http://minifree.o....