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Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by jfim on Sunday January 16, 2022 @01:50PM (#29958687)
This different article from STH explains what the AMD PSB is, without having to watch a video: https://www.servethehome.com/amd-psb-vendor-locks-epyc-cpus-...

> An OEM who trusts only their own cryptographically signed BIOS code to run on their platforms will use a PSB enabled motherboard and set one-time-programmable fuses in the processor to bind the processor to the OEM’s firmware code signing key. AMD processors are shipped unlocked from the factory, and can initially be used with any OEM’s motherboard. But once they are used with a motherboard with PSB enabled, the security fuses will be set, and from that point on, that processor can only be used with motherboards that use the same code signing key.

Basically, the CPU once in that mode will only work with the same signing key, and cannot be put on a motherboard from another brand (or potentially another model from the same manufacturer).

Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by jevoten on Sunday January 16, 2022 @02:12PM (#29958885)
> OEM who trusts only their own cryptographically signed BIOS code to run on their platforms

It's not their platform after they sell it. We should resist this trend of referring to items as still belonging to their manufacturers, legitimizing their control over them, while we are reduced to mere users, paying for items but not owning them. Let's see how it sounds:

> An OEM who wants to restrict their customers from selling their CPU, or buying one second-hand, will use a PSB enabled..

Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by kllrnohj on Sunday January 16, 2022 @06:29PM (#29961536)
It is the OEM's product. They are selling the BIOS, motherboard, and CPU as a single unit, along with a bunch of other stuff. If you wanted individual pieces, then buy individual pieces. Why are you even shopping for these products if you had any intention of ever dealing with in-socket CPU upgrades or parting it out second hand?
Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by michaelmrose on Sunday January 16, 2022 @09:04PM (#29962594)
Most of us aren't merchants we as a society aren't obliged to let you do business save on our terms. If they think they can get more favorable terms elsewhere they can very well sell locked down elsewhere. This is a trend we ought to have shut down 20 years ago and we should darn well shut down now.
Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by R0b0t1 on Sunday January 16, 2022 @07:02PM (#29961799)
There's precedent that they can't do this. If you buy it intending to piece it out and you can't and this was not explained to you, whoever you bought it from or AMD is liable for damages.
Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by amluto on Sunday January 16, 2022 @02:11PM (#29958872)
A much nicer solution would be a move the static root of trust off the CPU package. The motherboard’s EC could easily verify a BIOS signature before allowing boot with no CPU involvement whatsoever.
Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by MertsA on Sunday January 16, 2022 @04:55PM (#29960604)
I think part of the motivation here is tying it in with the PSP and having the root of trust be the processor and not processor for some stuff and motherboard for others. For PSP related stuff it does make sense to centralize on AMD rather than having every vendor have their own implementation of some platform security standard. It's dumb to let motherboards effectively brick a CPU but there reasonably could be a way to have the root of trust on the CPU and extend that to firmware signatures so you could remotely attest BIOS versions, etc.

I've mentioned this elsewhere but they could have just added some way of writing this signature out of band or allow bypassing it via a solder bridge on the top of the package like how SPD works on memory but require a separate interface for writing to it. Requiring a $10 I2C to USB adapter to change the key is not that onerous and it would be simple enough for OEMs to flash whatever they wanted on it and it could still be cleared for resale. For protecting against an APT doing shipment interdiction attacks quite frankly that sounds like a bunch of B.S. as all locking the key on the processor does is require the processor to be swapped out during an attack as well. If someone is going through the effort to intercept hardware in transit to flash custom malicious firmware on it, the cost of swapping the processor as well is not that extreme.

If they're going to keep the strategy of blowing fuses on the CPU die then AMD should be the ones doing it and they should make a vendor specific SKU so that trying to figure out if a CPU is vendor locked or not isn't such a minefield.

Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by NablaSquaredG on Sunday January 16, 2022 @02:23PM (#29959030)
As far as I know, Intel does exactly that (or at least allows vendors to do that, I think HP does that)

IIRC, in Intel's case, the chipset has the vendor keys burned into it. This is not an issue, as the chipset is not a part you would remove from the board and use elsewhere.

Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by amluto on Sunday January 16, 2022 @02:56PM (#29959339)
Intel’s or AMD’s assistance is not needed at all. There is a rather boring flash chip connected by SPI to the CPU and/or PCH. One could interpose a microcontroller that verifies whatever it pleases on that SPI link.
Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by my123 on Sunday January 16, 2022 @03:08PM (#29959450)
That’s the approach used by the Apple T2. On the Intel side, it’s the chipset soldered on the motherboard which does that verification, so CPU swapping isn’t affected.
Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by my123 on Sunday January 16, 2022 @02:39PM (#29959174)
In Intel’s case the ME as a whole is on the PCH.
Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by rasz on Sunday January 16, 2022 @03:11PM (#29959475)
AMD CPUs are full SOCs nowadays. Everything is on CPU die.
Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by qmarchi on Sunday January 16, 2022 @02:14PM (#29958910)
See: The Sony PS3
Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by chiph on Sunday January 16, 2022 @02:54PM (#29959321)
> or potentially another model from the same manufacturer

This would allow an OEM/ODM to segment their offerings by having two or more sets of signing keys. "Oh sorry, that CPU only works in our entry-level offerings. You will need our enterprise-certified AMD CPU for your large server." "But it's the same socket!"

Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by R0b0t1 on Sunday January 16, 2022 @01:52PM (#29958716)
Notably this seems to happen to CPUs that you might purchase yourself, which seems like a huge liability. If you somehow burn a $1000 CPU on a shitty mobo I can't see most people eating that.
Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by iratewizard on Sunday January 16, 2022 @02:10PM (#29958864)
My first thought was, is it really a big deal to do that to your laptop's cpu? Then I saw that they're doing this to desktops. My next thought was, people buy pre-built desktops still?

Still really concerning to see Lenovo make boneheaded moves like this when they've had one of the better track records for manufacturers.

Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by seized on Sunday January 16, 2022 @02:15PM (#29958920)
Maybe not the worst track record but they have made other terrible choices...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfish

Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by vetinari on Sunday January 16, 2022 @02:23PM (#29959014)
> My next thought was, people buy pre-built desktops still?

If you are enthusiast and need a one or two desktops, then probably not. If you need to procure several hundred of them every few months, then probably yes.

What this definitely will do is to affect the market price of these desktops once the lease (or depreciation time) runs out and owner will try to unload them on second hand market.

Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by mjrpes on Sunday January 16, 2022 @03:51PM (#29959874)
How does this affect the 2nd hand market? Will the buyer not be able to use the desktop?
Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by vetinari on Sunday January 16, 2022 @03:55PM (#29959923)
Cannot be bought as s source of spare parts, that you might use in different computers. At least not CPUs.
Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by overtonwhy on Sunday January 16, 2022 @02:42PM (#29959204)
Most people buy pre built desktops. Partly because it's the only way to get a high end video card.
Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by pram on Sunday January 16, 2022 @08:26PM (#29962357)
You think businesses have some computer janitor working for them that puts together heckin epic artisanal gaming rigs? lol
Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by kube-system on Sunday January 16, 2022 @03:11PM (#29959477)
Businesses almost exclusively purchase prebuilt computers.
Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by INTPenis on Sunday January 16, 2022 @03:18PM (#29959540)
Thanks for the explanation, this is what I suspected but it wasn't made clear by the hysteria of the video because I really don't see the problem here.

Most computers end up on the dump as one unit anyways. I've built a few computers in my time but never used an old CPU from one.

And especially not one with that form factor that I probably buy as a wardrobe homelab purpose. I'd compare it to my Asus PN50 that does have a later model Ryzen so it might just make use of this PSB.

Sure it sets an interesting precedent but then again a lot of CPUs in the business are welded to their boards.

And this conspiracy theory of this being like Intel ME, or being used maliciously, is just an exciting answer to what probably has a much simpler explanation, like maybe this is vendor locking their product just like Microsoft Windows has been doing for decades.

Re:Lenovo vendor locking Ryzen CPUs with AMD PSB by jacquesm on Sunday January 16, 2022 @03:29PM (#29959639)
> I've built a few computers in my time but never used an old CPU from one.

I've routinely upgraded drives, graphics cards and memory to give an older system a new lease on life. Usually they're good for a couple of years after that. Essentially the only things remaining where motherboard, CPU and the power supply.