News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Does Not Translate by umanwizard on Friday January 14, 2022 @05:40PM (#29941504)
Also, a lot of the French ones, like “joie de vivre”, have been borrowed into English verbatim. “Joie de vivre” is indeed translatable into English, and the translation is just “joie de vivre”.

To claim otherwise would be like saying that the concept of chile pepper can only be expressed in Nahuatl.

Re:Does Not Translate by tremon on Friday January 14, 2022 @06:36PM (#29941975)
Also, many expressions have direct translations (sometimes even literal) in other languages from the same family/geographic area. For example, "joie de vivre" has a direct Dutch translation "levenslust". The German words "scheinheilig" and "totschweigen" have direct Dutch equivalents "schijnheilig" and "doodzwijgen", and the Swedish words "förrgår" and "övermorgon" have direct Dutch equivalents "eergisteren" and "overmorgen".

Then there's plenty examples where a direct English equivalent exists even if it's not a literal translation of the original: nachäffen (de) = na-apen (nl) = mimicking (en), but English lacks the animal connotation (Affe == aap == ape); schwarzfahren (de) = zwartrijden (nl) = fare dodging (en), but English loses the colour in the expression (Schwarz == zwart == black).

Funny thing also that it lists the Spanish "sobremesa" as after-dinner conversation, then lists the Dutch "natafelen" as lingering after having finished dinner, continuing conversation. The two are equivalent expressions, except that one is a noun and one is a verb. Same for "fremdschämen" (de) and "vergüenza ajena" (es), which is known in Dutch as "plaatsvervangende schaamte".

Re:Does Not Translate by quantumet on Friday January 14, 2022 @06:45PM (#29942037)
> Then there's plenty examples where a direct English equivalent exists even if it's not a literal translation of the original: nachäffen (de) = na-apen (nl) = mimicking (en), but English lacks the animal connotation (Affe == aap == ape)

Even here, english has the term 'aping': https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aaping, with the same meaning and retains the same animal connotation.

Re:Does Not Translate by vba616 on Saturday January 15, 2022 @01:33AM (#29944141)
>levenslust

I'm not sure of the origin, but "lust for life" is an expression that's been used in English for at least a century, it seems. It was the name of a biography of Vincent Van Gogh.

The earliest reference on this page seems to be a German film, so maybe it comes from German: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lust_for_Life

Hmm, maybe it goes back further - Google Books seems to have some instances from the 19th century. A few are negative, basically using the phrase to mean being worldly and not spiritual, a bad thing or even a "curse".

In that sense it wouldn't seem to be the same meaning, but maybe it changed over time.

Re:Does Not Translate by awb on Friday January 14, 2022 @06:26PM (#29941906)
> “Joie de vivre” is indeed translatable into English, and the translation is just “joie de vivre”.

I’m a native English speaker and I’ve never heard of the expression “Joie de vivre”, so I don’t understand how “Joie de vivre” is the English translation of “Joie de vivre”.

Re:Does Not Translate by ithkuil on Friday January 14, 2022 @07:20PM (#29942284)
Yeah, it's such a cliché. Using too many foreign words is such a faux pas, it reveals the bourgeois character of the speaker. No no no, a real connoisseur of the English language won't have such a lassaiz-faire attitude and accept just any fancy word du jour. That would be so gauche indeed. Au contraire I'm blasé at such attempts. The real English entrepreneurial avant-garde clique has so many choices a la carte, so much joi de vivere in this je ne sais qua of a deja vu. Touché
Re:Does Not Translate by gramie on Friday January 14, 2022 @08:03PM (#29942567)
"laissez-faire"* "à la carte"* "so much joi de vivre"* "je ne sais quoi"* "déjà vu"*

But well done for so densely packing French loan words (loan phrases?) into a single paragraph!

Re:Does Not Translate by awb on Friday January 14, 2022 @07:39PM (#29942412)
Haha! I followed you until you went pure French.
Re:Does Not Translate by chrismcb on Saturday January 15, 2022 @12:11AM (#29943741)
He never went "pure French"
Re:Does Not Translate by awb on Saturday January 15, 2022 @10:17AM (#29946945)
Depends on your perspective I guess. I see your point that they’re all phrases in the English dictionary.

From a French perspective though it’s mixed French/English until the end which would be entirely French.

Re:Does Not Translate by ithkuil on Saturday January 15, 2022 @10:43AM (#29947190)
The escalation toward "pure french" was intended as an attempt to mirror https://luminusdadon.wordpress.com/2006/05/04/how-english-be...
Re:Does Not Translate by awb on Saturday January 15, 2022 @11:17AM (#29947525)
I remember that from a long time ago. It’s fun to read the last sentence first and have it be unreadable. Then read from the beginning and it’s perfectly readable.
Re:Does Not Translate by skinkestek on Monday January 17, 2022 @04:39AM (#29964876)
16 years ago.

And below, a broken banner for "Take back the Web, Get Firefox".

Complete with a link to spreadfirefox.com that seems to be broken.

Re:Does Not Translate by scubbo on Friday January 14, 2022 @08:22PM (#29942678)
Bravo.
Re:Does Not Translate by tasogare on Friday January 14, 2022 @09:42PM (#29943060)
Excellent.

One funny thing I've noticed with French EFL speakers of medium proficiency is that they too think all those loanwords from French aren't English words. It's always fun to troll them dropping a en route and look at their reaction.

Re:Does Not Translate by umanwizard on Friday January 14, 2022 @06:28PM (#29941920)
Well, that’s unsurprising; nobody can know every expression in any language, even their native one.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/joie%20de%20vivre

Re:Does Not Translate by awb on Friday January 14, 2022 @06:40PM (#29942003)
Surprising to me. I’m an avid reader of books and news and movie watcher and I’ve never heard this phrase once. I also took 3 years of French, went to a 4 year college and I’ve reviewed lists of foreign phrases commonly used in English with my kids, all while somehow dodging this phrase for ~40 years!
Re:Does Not Translate by throwaway98700k on Friday January 14, 2022 @06:45PM (#29942040)
It’s as common as je ne sais quoi or deja vu or ennui.

This one’s on you. Here’s a helpful list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_French_expressio...

Re:Does Not Translate by celtain on Friday January 14, 2022 @07:24PM (#29942319)
It's definitely not as common as deja vu.
Re:Does Not Translate by awb on Friday January 14, 2022 @07:40PM (#29942419)
I’ve heard those other ones a ton of times.
Re:Does Not Translate by irrational on Friday January 14, 2022 @07:49PM (#29942484)
Well, I’m 50 and I’ve heard it before. Maybe you just need to live for 10 more years ;-)

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Joie+de+vivr...

Re:Does Not Translate by awb on Friday January 14, 2022 @08:28PM (#29942709)
Or maybe I needed to be born 10 years earlier :)
Re:Does Not Translate by dmitriid on Friday January 14, 2022 @06:37PM (#29941978)
I've seen it once or twice in a book (and I needed to look up its meaning/translation). And it's possible Stephen Fry used it once (possibly on QI).

It's one of those weird specific words that you use to show that you're smarter than you are (this doesn't apply to Stephen Fry of course :D )

Re:Does Not Translate by irrational on Friday January 14, 2022 @07:41PM (#29942423)
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Joie+de+vivr...

It has been estimated that English has more than a million words, what percentage do you think you actually know?

Re:Does Not Translate by awb on Friday January 14, 2022 @11:22PM (#29943509)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-44569277

> Typically native speakers know 15,000 to 20,000 word families - or lemmas - in their first language.

Sounds about right to me.

Re:Does Not Translate by chrismcb on Saturday January 15, 2022 @12:09AM (#29943738)
Google claims the translation to English is "joy of living" "joie de vivre"isn't exactly a common phrase in English
Re:Does Not Translate by CamTin on Saturday January 15, 2022 @01:32AM (#29944134)
In my experience, "joie de vivre" isn't really everyday vocabulary, but then I've never heard the phrase "joy of living" spoken even once. Google trends seems to bear this out: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=Joie%20de%...