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Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by pydry on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @06:39AM (#29890250)
I don't get the positivity surrounding nuclear power and the claim that antipathy is akin to antivax idiocy.

* It's eye wateringly expensive both to build and to decommission. Solar, wind and batteries are cheaper. Hornsea 2 produces the same power as a nuclear plant at half the price and with surprisingly low intermittency.

* Even if it were the same price, nuclear takes decades to build rather than years.

* Despite constant claims of its safety you wont find an insurance company in the world that will insure one without 99% of the cleanup cost being borne by taxpayer. Nuclear plants simply dont get built without taxpayer insurance and the nuclear industry refuses to take that risk themselves.

* If current history is anything to go by the risk of disaster is about 1 in 4000 per reactor year and the cleanup cost in Japan is around the $600-800 billion mark.

* It is possible to supplant it with green energy and Germany has done exactly that, which is why emissions have gone down.

* The idea that spending more money on a more expensive and slower to build form of green energy will help speed up the green transition is dubious at best.

Why is it so popular in spite of this? It helps offset some of the costs of having a nuclear arsenal (or puts you on the road to having one). This is a large part of why the US, China, UK and France are happy to pay up and take the risks while Germany and Japan threw in the towel.

Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by throw0101a on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @07:34AM (#29890760)
> I don't get the positivity surrounding nuclear power and the claim that antipathy is akin to antivax idiocy.

Climate change is a (existential?) threat to humanity. There is only so much renewable energy generation capacity that can be constructed in any given year. If you shutdown a nuclear power plant, the demand it was servicing does not magically go away. So you need to something to meet that demand: that may be renewable, but if not enough can be constructed, then it could also mean running fossil fuels more.

So if you want to actually treat climate change as an important problem, why would you shutdown non-emitting source of power that you already have?

Keep the existing nuclear plants, shutdown the fossil fuel-based generators, and use the renewable power you're building to offset the retirement of the latter.

Once all your carbon-emitting generators are retired then consider shutting down the non-emitting nuclear generators.

At no point in the above process are new nuclear plants built.

Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by pydry on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @08:10AM (#29891048)
>So if you want to actually treat climate change as an important problem, why would you shutdown non-emitting source of power that you already have?

In Germany's case because they saw what happened in Japan and made an adjustment to their projected risk assessments and decided it wasnt worthwhile.

It may have been the wrong decision, especially given the difficulty in measuring the risks involved but it wasnt an irrational decision.

Nuclear power has a small chance of going wrong but when it does it goes very wrong.

And when it did, Japan had to fire up all of its coal and natural gas.

Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by throw0101a on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @08:42AM (#29891334)
"Germany's CO2 emissions from electricity estimated to rise by 13% in 2021"

* https://www.enerdata.net/publications/daily-energy-news/germ...

"German energy demand, carbon dioxide emissions seen rising in 2021 -industry group"

* https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/german-energy-d...

"Germany’s energy consumption rising, renewables share falling in 2021"

* https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/germanys-energy-consump...

I live 50km from a nuclear power plant. I don't worry about it at all.

Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by pydry on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @09:20AM (#29891696)
>Germany's CO2 emissions from electricity estimated to rise by 13% in 2021

I'd have expected a larger spike in light of the end of lockdowns.

Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by alkonaut on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @08:19AM (#29891122)
Tearing down existing nuclear power and constructing new nuclear power is two different things. To decomission nuclear power at a point where the country is still dependent on imported hydrocarbons is just a very strange. Just leaving (or extending the lifespan) of existing nuclear in a transition period seems like the least one should do in Germany's shoes.

One can have an endless debate about whether nuclear power plants and/or wind/solar/something else should be built. But to have the discussion about whether existing plants that are here NOW should be stopped, at the same time as Russia is using the energy crisis in Europe as an opportunity for a land grab is... crazy .

Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by jgb1984 on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @08:52AM (#29891426)
Very crazy, and unfortunately the example of Germany made my own country (Belgium) decide to commit the same awful mistake, which will be paid in full (in drastically increased CO2 output, enormous energy price increases and dancing to the tune of a Russian dictator).
Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by pmontra on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @06:53AM (#29890391)
I add to that list:

* Most countries have to import uranium exactly as they have to import oil. They don't have to import sun and wind.

* If a nuclear power plant seriously fails (2 accidents in 70 years) nobody and their nephew's nephew's will be able to live in that area. If a dam fails at least that ground is not lost forever.

* Building, managing and eventually decommissioning a nuclear power plant has its own CO2 impact if we do it using fossil fuels.

This is a fair assessment IMHO: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/nuclear/nuclear-power-an...

Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by marax27 on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @08:01AM (#29890980)
> If a nuclear power plant seriously fails (2 accidents in 70 years) nobody and their nephew's nephew's will be able to live in that area.

People do live near Fukushima power plant. Regarding one of the nearby towns, Ōkuma: "In April 2019, parts of the town were deemed to have been successfully decontaminated, with residents allowed to return to these areas. [...] The actual population resident in the town was 2578 people". [1]

> If a dam fails at least that ground is not lost forever.

Relocating population for good is very much the case when it comes to dam _building_. [2]

Nuclear power does have pros and cons, but let's stop with fearmongering.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Ckuma,_Fukushima

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flooded_towns_in_the_U...

Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by tjansen on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @06:57AM (#29890425)
> Solar, wind and batteries are cheaper and money is limited.

How can you even estimate the cost of batteries? Insane amounts of batteries would be needed, capable of storing all of Germany's energy needs (including transportation and residential heating) for 10 days or so. That would be at least 10 TWh, as Germany currently uses about 550 TWh per year.

The global production of lithium ion batteries in 2018 was 290 GWh (1000 GWh = 1 TWh), expected to increase to 2 TWh per year by 2028 (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1247625/global-productio...).

In other words, even if Germany would buy every single battery produced on Earth over the course of 5 years, it probably wouldn't be sufficient to provide energy for 10 winter days without wind.

Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by pydry on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @07:06AM (#29890523)
>We find that low-wind-power events are less frequent in winter than in summer, but the maximum duration is distributed more evenly between months. While short events are frequent, very long events are much rarer. Every year, a period of around five consecutive days with an average wind capacity factor below 10% occurs, and every ten years a respective period of nearly eight days. These durations decrease if only winter months are considered. The longest event in the data lasts nearly ten days.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ab91e9

In your once in a lifetime event I'd be happy if we used a bit of gas. This is something, after all, that Japan also had to do for years after Fukushima went kaput.

Bear in mind also that demand for heating and transportation can be timeshifted. An Octopus tariff in the UK already allows for this. We've barely scratched the surface of whats possible here because electric grids are slow to evolve to this new reality.

Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by inglor_cz on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @07:14AM (#29890594)
"I'd be happy if we used a bit of gas."

Gas alone does not produce electricity. Gas power stations do. This means building enough gas power stations to cover power requirements of the entire country, then having them sitting most of the time idle there, "just in case".

This is the core of the problem: wind and solar need to be massively backed up. You cannot rely on them supplying even 5 per cent of their nominal capacity if the weather turns against you.

Such a massive backup is eye-wateringly expensive, too. And it consumes concrete and steel, two elements whose production is carbon-intensive.

Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by pydry on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @07:19AM (#29890646)
>This means building enough gas power stations to cover power requirements of the entire country, then having them sitting most of the time idle

If you assume:

* We dont already have the infrastructure.

* Power cant be imported.

* Power usage cant be timeshifted.

* Power cant be stored in batteries.

* 10 day periods without wind and sun are routine.

Then yes, it might get expensive.

Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by pydry on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @09:44AM (#29891953)
I forgot pumped storage which is apparently 8 TWh

https://www.hydropower.org/country-profiles/germany

Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by drran on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @09:35AM (#29891859)
Smart grid can solve this problem, when appliances will report of their needs and abilities to the grid, and then the grid will schedule power delivery to meet the demand.
Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by tjansen on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @10:03AM (#29892219)
What kind of appliances can wait for several hours? The only example I can think of are cars that are being charged over night.
Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by drran on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @11:25AM (#29893545)
Water heaters, cars, washing/drying machines, power walls, battery powered devices. Electric teapot, microwave, cooking stove can operate at half of power when demand is very high. They can report to and receive instructions from a smart power meter.
Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by tjansen on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @07:29AM (#29890713)
Well, then make it 5 days. That still needs more capacity than the global battery production per year.
Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by stefan_ on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @06:58AM (#29890441)
Do you really want to bet there will be no viable battery technology for another 50 years? It's kind of a high value research topic right now.
Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by tjansen on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @07:31AM (#29890733)
50 years? I'd hope we have fusion power by then. But it doesn't look like there will be enough batteries for wind power in the next 20 years.
Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by marmarama on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @07:47AM (#29890860)
There is, however, plenty of hydrogen in seawater.
Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by RandomLensman on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @07:31AM (#29890729)
For one thing, nuclear gives you contingencies in the long run that other forms of energy don't provide, up to and including nukes. But nukes aside, if for any reason, we get some drastically different climate path (say, a big volcano erupts) than nuclear does not stop working like PV could.

Solar and wind are predicated on certain things staying one way, while nuclear is predicated on other things staying in a certain way.

Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by inglor_cz on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @07:09AM (#29890560)
Some of the nuclear plants that Germany is shutting down are < 40 years old. Their lifetime could well be prolonged for next 20-40 years. They already exist and sit there.

Instead, Germany chose the path of decommissioning, which, as you mention, is expensive - and produces no electricity. This was a purely ideological move.

Re:Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power by fsflover on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @07:03AM (#29890493)
> It's eye wateringly expensive both to build and to decommission.

If markets valued the low-CO2 nature of nuclear, they’d be doing better, https://whatisnuclear.com/economics.html

> Even if it were the same price, nuclear takes decades to build rather than years.

We are talking about closing existing plants. Also, stopping coal in 2038 is no problem, right?

> Despite constant claims of its safety you wont find an insurance company in the world that will insure one without 99% of the cleanup cost being borne by taxpayer.

Probably because of the stupid government regulations? See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power#/media/File:Deat....