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Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by MarkPNeyer on Thursday January 06, 2022 @03:19PM (#29829435)
> I’ve often wished there were a way to organize against crypto,

From my perspective, it's a peaceful revolution against a corrupt global status quo.

The only people hurt by this false perception (bitcoin makes renewables more profitable by acting as a buyer when nobody else will) are people who don't buy bitcoin. And it's their loss.

What would you say to someone in el salvador who's happy accepting bitcoin because they no longer have to trek to ATM's and risk getting mugged?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVVZXUFItZY

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by amluto on Thursday January 06, 2022 @03:42PM (#29829807)
> The only people hurt by this false perception (bitcoin makes renewables more profitable by acting as a buyer when nobody else will) are people who don't buy bitcoin. And it's their loss.

And everyone harmed by the rather sizable ecosystem of outright crime that takes advantage of cryptocurrency.

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by anonporridge on Friday January 07, 2022 @04:09PM (#29844849)
You mean the ecosystem that's a fraction of crime supported by the traditional finance system?
Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by shafyy on Thursday January 06, 2022 @05:11PM (#29831073)
> bitcoin makes renewables more profitable by acting as a buyer when nobody else will

You don't really believe this, do you?

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by twic on Thursday January 06, 2022 @03:59PM (#29830072)
> What would you say to someone in el salvador who's happy accepting bitcoin

They aren't:

https://cointelegraph.com/news/some-salvadorans-claim-funds-...

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by lezojeda on Thursday January 06, 2022 @03:32PM (#29829637)
Thank you for this response. I think this whole issue is always addressed from the point of view of people from well developed first world countries, such as aynthing related to climate change. Sometimes I wished they lived just one year in my country with 50% of inflation and see how they deal with that...
Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by streamofdigits on Thursday January 06, 2022 @03:58PM (#29830056)
I feel the despair in your comment

but you can not fix a broken thing with another, even more broken thing (which is this greedy cryptomania)

it is broken government that is the problem and it causes far more ills than monetary inflation

what needs fixing is government. you cannot have a stable meaningful life, society, economy without a semi-decent government that is accountable, democratic and somewhat competent

if the financial system still needs fixing after you fix government it would probably be a marginal patch and not starting from zero

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by lezojeda on Thursday January 06, 2022 @04:12PM (#29830235)
I understand your argument, but while we try to change our government we still need a way to save money and get paid without being robbed, cryptos are a way to avoid that, it's as simple as that.

Please understand that people like me who live in third world countries have third world problems, worrying about the climate change is sometimes not in the top of our priorities when we don't even now if we'll have 50, 100 or 30% of anual inflation. And I find unfair how sometimes we are told and scolded by the first world when they didn't get there via green policies, really.

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by streamofdigits on Friday January 07, 2022 @06:04AM (#29837703)
There may be a case for tactical use of whatever tools are available to achieve a positive result. Who am I to condemn people to sub-par living conditions on the basis of conceptual arguments...

But please take at heart my previous comment. Climate change may sound like an elite concern but it is not. It is actually representative of our deepest global problems.

The reason that the so-called "third world" still has third world problems is that political and economic systems everywhere ignore environmental and social conditions, focus on resource extraction, enriching a few elites etc.

Some form of digital technology would surely help us solve those very difficult problems or at least make them less painful and unsustainable, but cryptocurrencies is nowhere close to do so. It is simplistic, economically more than naive, has the wrong builtin assumptions about society (complete lack of trust) etc.

In any case, good night and good luck

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by notch656a on Friday January 07, 2022 @11:39AM (#29841241)
Crypto isn't built on lack of trust, it's lack of centralized trust. It's a trust that the majority of the PoW hash-rate (or stake, for some cryptos) is reflecting genuine transactions.

This actually better reflects the way man is, where society works when most people are relatively honest and a minority of criminals and sadistic politicians, bankers, police, tax authorities should be distrusted.

I'm all for people using crypto to use a little less A/C, heat, or drive less to balance it out if those in a warm (or cool) comfy house are a bit upset about it. Probably shouldn't be compelled though unless you're gonna create a Watt Police.

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by notch656a on Thursday January 06, 2022 @04:52PM (#29830794)
The climate change thing is overspoken, most of these people are fine with someone using 10 graphics cards to do AI training or whatever other task that is resource intensive. It's just that climate change is a big political and cultural point for a certain segment of US and Europe so those against crypto have found a convenient propaganda point by making people feel guilty for using computation cycles in an unapproved manner.
Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by nikanj on Thursday January 06, 2022 @03:40PM (#29829771)
Not sure how to put this in a non-blunt way, but the hardcore crypto bros are not from your country either.
Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by lezojeda on Thursday January 06, 2022 @03:42PM (#29829794)
And? I don't have to agree with the """ hardcore crypto bros """ either. Both extremes can be harmful.
Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by shagie on Thursday January 06, 2022 @05:06PM (#29831012)
In using crypto, you are exporting the wealth of your country to those miners in other countries through transaction fees. The more you use it, the more of your country's wealth is exported (which in turn means that the country's currency is worth less and accelerates the inflation that is experienced).
Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by FabHK on Thursday January 06, 2022 @06:14PM (#29831983)
And it is about $100 per BTC transaction that the miners extract (most of it in form of the coinbase mining reward, some of it in the form of fees).
Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by munificent on Thursday January 06, 2022 @05:53PM (#29831710)
> bitcoin makes renewables more profitable by acting as a buyer when nobody else will

Yes, and landmines make blood donation more profitable, but that doesn't make them a net moral good.

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by arcticbull on Thursday January 06, 2022 @03:23PM (#29829505)
> From my perspective, it's a peaceful revolution against a corrupt global status quo.

It's not though. It's broadly a combination of ignorance of how the present system actually works, tinfoil hat economics and anarcocapitalist libertarian ideology.

It replaces one set of corruption (accountable to the people) with a whole new set of corruption. Money laundering, crime, wash trading, tape painting, spoof orders - an Inspector Gadget run shadow bank in the Bahamas printing ersatz dollars - the whole shebang. Out with the old criminals technically accountable, in with new criminals definitely unaccountable. This is strictly worse by all metrics. And that's before we even broach how terrible deflationary money actually is in practice.

> The only people hurt by this false perception (bitcoin incentives clean energy production and makes renewables more profitable) are people who don't buy bitcoin. And it's their loss.

If you build a bunch of green energy then waste it all, you haven't incentivized anything. You've just wasted a bunch of green energy - without that benefit accruing to the actual grid. Any time the price goes up so does the budget for waste. It's everyone's loss.

> What would you say to someone in el salvador who's happy accepting bitcoin because they no longer have to trek to ATM's and risk getting mugged?

I would say if they're happy with digital money they can open a Wise Multicurrency account.

But they're not happy accepting bitcoin. [1, 2] They're being forced by an authoritarian dictator to accept it, at gunpoint.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/technology/majority-salvadorans-do-n...

[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-58579415

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by lezojeda on Thursday January 06, 2022 @03:33PM (#29829653)
Freelancers in my country (Argentina) will happily accept crypto instead of dollars so they aren't robbed by our government, it is really an alternative for us.

Not only that, is another way for us to save money in cash since we have an extremely limited to other currencies (we have 50% annual inflation so saving in our national currency isn't an option)

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by nikanj on Thursday January 06, 2022 @03:44PM (#29829842)
Bluecollar people have happily accepted cash to avoid taxes since forever. Calling taxes "Being robbed by your government" is such a cliché
Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by lezojeda on Thursday January 06, 2022 @03:50PM (#29829945)
>Calling taxes "Being robbed by your government" is such a cliché

Tell me, where are you from? Do you have free access to other currencies where you live? Because I don't, and where I live we have 50% inflation (even 100% for groceries). It's not taxes when we don't get anything in return and we can't even save in the currency we are paid.

I'd like to see how you live here for a year.

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by immibis on Thursday January 06, 2022 @05:55PM (#29831738)
If you manage to get the full value of your money, other people will lose the full value of theirs. The value that supposedly backs your local currency simply does not exist. Is it not fairer that everyone gets 50%?
Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by lezojeda on Thursday January 06, 2022 @06:54PM (#29832492)
>If you manage to get the full value of your money, other people will lose the full value of theirs.

Why?

>The value that supposedly backs your local currency simply does not exist

Tell me something I don't know...

>Is it not fairer that everyone gets 50%?

What? Why? Why should anyone working for abroad let the government decide how much money they get from their hours spent working?

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by nikanj on Friday January 07, 2022 @01:17PM (#29842615)
Sorry, I didn't understand the last part. Did you mean "People who have jobs with foreign companies should not have to pay taxes"?
Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by lezojeda on Friday January 07, 2022 @08:23PM (#29847511)
No, I didn't. Have a nice weekend.
Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by arcticbull on Thursday January 06, 2022 @03:52PM (#29829966)
To be clear nobody is supposed to save in the currency they are paid, ever, anywhere on earth. I’m not saying that makes 50% inflation ok just that this not the argument. Not least because bitcoin has once again seen 50% inflation in the last 60 days.

Again though, why not USDC?

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by lezojeda on Thursday January 06, 2022 @04:11PM (#29830215)
One of the parent comments above said "I’ve often wished there were a way to organize against crypto", I believe USDC is another crypto isn't it?

But yes, is another way many freelancers are paid here, it's not just bitcoin and ETH, many use stablecoins.

I only find kinda selfish the comfortable position to be against ALL cryptocurrencies (which don't do such a damage to the climate like bitcoin.) while living in the first world, even those

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by arcticbull on Friday January 07, 2022 @06:12PM (#29846277)
You do have access to other currencies via a Wise multi-currency account. They're free, and available in Argentina.
Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by yellowapple on Friday January 07, 2022 @07:03AM (#29838102)
> Bluecollar people have happily accepted cash to avoid taxes since forever.

All the more reason why cryptocurrencies might be useful to blue collar people.

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by arcticbull on Friday January 07, 2022 @06:14PM (#29846303)
Well no, someone has to pay for social services.
Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by notch656a on Friday January 07, 2022 @11:54AM (#29841472)
Only 29% of El Salvador has a bank account and you want them to use Wise? How are they supposed to get their money OUT of wise, transfer it again to someone with a bank account? Seems like an extra step when they can just receive BTC (and even spend it locally), go to the ATM and be done with it.

You think you have used less energy than the average El Salvadorian who uses BTC? It's really entertaining to see the watt-police coming out when many of these same people have A/C or heat turned up in their house way beyond the maximum survivable bands of the temperature range.

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by MarkPNeyer on Thursday January 06, 2022 @03:27PM (#29829559)
Would you say you're at all surprised at how long bitcoin has lasted, or how high the price is now?

What kind of data would change your mind?

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by arcticbull on Thursday January 06, 2022 @03:33PM (#29829660)
The price started getting pumped up by Tether, and now it's managed by Alameda and Cumberland in cooperation with Tether. USDT volume is 50% higher than the sum of BTC and ETH volume. The price you see, $42500 or whatever, that's not USD. That's USDT. If you control the printing of the currency, and you buy shit with it, you can absolutely set it to whatever you want. [1]

To quote Bitfinex right before they fired up the Tether printer:

  BTC could tank to below 1k if we don't act quickly
So no, I'm not surprised by the price. The action dragged in a few profiteering hedge funds.

[1] https://cryptonews.com/news/how-merlin-lost-patience-trying-...

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by FabHK on Thursday January 06, 2022 @07:36PM (#29832942)
From the cited article, that quote was Bitfinex to one of their banks not processing fiat redemption requests (so people could not withdraw money from Bitfinex). Of course, prolonged bouts of that would've reduced trust in crypto and exchanges, reasonably so.

Not evident what that has to do with the Tether printer?

And btw, do you have any links on the hedge fund connection, and Alameda and Cumberland?

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by arcticbull on Thursday January 06, 2022 @10:49PM (#29834597)
> Not evident what that has to do with the Tether printer?

Shortly after that exchange, they realized they could just take the money out of the Tether bank account, and use it to satisfy their withdrawal requests. I speculate this is the moment they realized that they did not have to actually back their USDT, and turned on the printer.

> Of course, prolonged bouts of that would've reduced trust in crypto and exchanges, reasonably so.

I think that is a completely reasonable alternative explanation.

> And btw, do you have any links on the hedge fund connection, and Alameda and Cumberland?

Check this out. Protos did the legwork to figure out where all the USDT issuances were going. Of $96B in outbound distributions to market makers, $36B went to Alameda and $24B went to Cumberland. That's almost 70% of all distributions ever made to large accounts.

[1] https://protos.com/tether-papers-crypto-stablecoin-usdt-inve...

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by BrianOnHN on Thursday January 06, 2022 @03:55PM (#29830011)
Does anyone know what that does to inflation?

Iirc the btc/eth market caps are more than the amount of "printed" USD throughout the pandemic.

Does tether printed act the same on inflation as USD printed?

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by IAmEveryone on Thursday January 06, 2022 @05:00PM (#29830909)
Is “ making renewables profitable” the new talking point? I’m glad for the change because I got tired reading about all these dams China had apparently built in areas not connected to their grid.
Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by spiralx on Friday January 07, 2022 @04:35PM (#29845146)
Don't forget all those power plants generating power when there was no demand!

“Making renewables profitable” is the same talking point as “utilising excess power” as I see it, or at least a minor variation of it.

Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by immibis on Thursday January 06, 2022 @05:54PM (#29831721)
The crypto status quo is no different from the global status quo. The only difference is the set of people at the top is somewhat permuted by the set of people who were lucky enough to be interested in magic internet money back in 2009.
Re:Mozilla Foundation pausing cryptocurrency donations by mad182 on Friday January 07, 2022 @02:50AM (#29836264)
> makes renewables more profitable

In other words - increases energy prices for everyone.