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Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by MattGaiser on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @12:36PM (#29812088)
> We might also add “Employers forced to raise wages for others who remain.”

Is this part happening? Are those who remain getting raises or just the new people hired as replacements? Heard a lot about that.

Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by cj on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @12:46PM (#29812268)
(20 person company here) We've been giving raises above what we normally would do simply because it's not fair to have a developer who's 1 week on the job, same skillset, making $15-20k more than someone who's been working with us for 2 years.

When giving the raises, I've been saying "This raise is to keep our pay competitive with the market, and will not affect your regular annual review" (we also give raises to people annually)

Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by mcguire on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:12PM (#29813482)
What's fairness got to do with it?

I get that some employers, particularly in small businesses like you describe, might be committed to such fairness, but most employers in my experience have been perfectly content and even fight back (as in, "well, if you had a competing offer...") if the employees start comparing numbers.

Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by cj on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:34PM (#29815280)
> What's fairness got to do with it?

Fairness itself has nothing to do with it.

It has everything to do with avoiding employees getting mad when they here the new guy makes significantly more, which leads to conflict, which leads to unhappy employees, which leads to poor productivity.

Perhaps "fairness" is the wrong thing to call it. More like "do things to retain good employees". Usually "being fair" falls into the "do things to retain good employees" category.

Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by abeyer on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:09PM (#29814258)
And the businesses that thought that way were able to maintain the status quo by forbidding or at least strongly discouraging employees sharing compensation info. That's no longer legal in the US, and people are still playing catch up, but I think this is on its way out. As soon as it's easy for employees to _know_ that they've gotten the short stick they aren't going to stay quiet about it.
Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by dudus on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @12:45PM (#29812253)
In my circle people are leaving eng jobs as seniors where they make 200k to offers of 400k-600k. People who remained got little to no raises and are looking around for other opportunities. It's crazy, to me it feels like a bubble waiting to burst.
Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by lotsofpulp on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @12:52PM (#29812383)
I am placing my bets on the USD losing purchasing power rather than nominal wages declining again. It would not be good for either political party to let nominal wages go down, at least for the bottom 50% of earners.
Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by dcolkitt on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:15PM (#29813526)
Agree with this. For the "bubble" in high-end SWE comp to burst, the "bubble" in VC would have to burst. And VC isn't a liquid asset class that's likely to crash on a Black Tuesday like event.

The explosion in VC capital has been primarily driven by a reach for yield among institutions, endowments, pensions and sovereign wealth funds. All of this money is extremely sticky, and once allocated will take 10+ years to de-allocate. So really the only way we see private equity funding collapse is if public equities quickly crater, forcing endowments to rebalance to stay in their allocation mandate.

And that could possibly happen, given how rich public equity valuations are. But the reality is the modern Fed is never again in our lifetime going to let nominal stock prices fall by 35% or more like they did in 2008. The traumas from the GFC are simply too ingrained in the current generation of central bankers and policy makers.

If push comes to shove and equities hit a bear market (20% drawdown), the Fed is going to turn the liquidity faucet to max. The forever war against Covid gives them a convenient excuse. In the scenario, you'll probably just see the Fed let inflation run hot at 10%+ for a few years. Again the Covid transitory narrative gives the cover.

Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by 908B64B197 on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @07:25PM (#29817363)
> The explosion in VC capital has been primarily driven by a reach for yield among institutions, endowments, pensions and sovereign wealth funds.

Also, where else would they invest this money?

Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by decafninja on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:37PM (#29813816)
Software engineers specifically probably benefited a lot from WFHing in 2020-2021 by being able to grind leetcode during downtime within working hours.

Office workers (including SWEs) in general benefited a lot because WFHing made the logistics of interviewing around significantly easier.

A lot of my old department at my previous company jumped ship for places that offered significantly more pay (specifically, tech companies) or better WFH policies. More people left in the span of a few months during the summer of 2021 than I recall leaving during my entire tenure there (7 years).

Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by alienthrowaway on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @07:27PM (#29817376)
> Software engineers specifically probably benefited a lot from WFHing in 2020-2021 by being able to grind leetcode during downtime within working hours.

Speaking for myself, grinding leetcode in 2021 was very difficult because I was close to burning-out (very little outdoor recreation, blurred lines between work hours and non-work hours which resulted in me frequently working 9-11 hours per day (with breaks). I think it would have been easier pre-covid.

With in-person schools and daycares closed and the kids at home, there was no "downtime within working hours" - cue the working late at night after kids had gone to bed to make up for it (and the subsequent near-burnout experience).

Also, my recruiter told me they were seeing record-high post-screen interview cancellations by interviewees during COVID times - but perhaps their numbers were not representative. My suspicion is that there was a massive mental health disaster that was mostly hidden from view[1], and software engineers were not spared.

1. I wasn't even aware of my mental state until I started grinding leetcode and recognized the tell-tale signs of burnout as I had experienced full-blown burnout before (my self-motivation was reduced, but not yet gone)

Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by ncpa-cpl on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @06:12PM (#29816542)
> or better WFH policies

The main reason I stay in my job is that our department is pro WFH.

Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by decafninja on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @06:22PM (#29816674)
I have heard since my departure that base salaries have been bumped up. Now compensation is competitive versus other banks at least, but probably still around at least ~25% lower than most decent tech companies, and ~100% lower than FAANG tier companies.

WFH policy is as conservative and hostile as ever AFAIK.

Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by nopenopenopeno on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @12:53PM (#29812408)
Can you elaborate on the bubble bursting part? I don’t have much knowledge about how this works. If companies couldn’t afford those salaries, why would they be paying them? I’m probably misunderstanding.
Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by MattGaiser on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @12:58PM (#29812486)
1. Afford is a weird concept when you can go to a multi billion dollar company without ever making a profit with VC investment. A lot of tech jobs are in businesses that may not be able to make money.

2. It could lead to companies re-evaluating whether all their projects are worth it. Anecdotally, I have heard of some automation projects being cancelled as manual workers in other countries are cheaper.

Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by nopenopenopeno on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @05:30PM (#29816029)
Thanks for the explanation. This makes sense.
Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by dudus on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:42PM (#29813877)
That is a very personal opinion, I have very low risk apetite when it comes to investing. And the bubble i mention is me translating that to the job market.

If you look at the job market as a commodity where companies are on the buy side and workers are on the sell side you could say that the price of the commodity spiked suddenly. Whenever that happens I'm usually wary of the corrections that surely follow.

That could mean mass layoffs in the future when companies realize the commodity isn't worth that much. It could mean business closings due to lack of purchase power to compete. It could mean inflation to adjust the purchase power.

Again it's all speculation. And it's derived from risk tolerance. If you like risky investments it makes sense to try to capitalize and sell your labor for the most you can. I can't blame you.

Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by nopenopenopeno on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @05:30PM (#29816023)
Thanks for explaining. This makes a lot of sense.
Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by bcrosby95 on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:15PM (#29813531)
In my circle I know a lot of people making 400-600k, but the 1 senior person that went job hunting, after about 6 months, ended up at a startup making 150k.
Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by Cederfjard on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:17PM (#29814346)
Is this at FAANG? Or smaller companies?
Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by prophesi on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @12:51PM (#29812369)
I would also add that the jobs people are leaving are in the service industry. I know it's also difficult to hire in the tech industry currently, but it's already offset by higher wages and remote work. The service industry is reluctant to do the former and literally can't do the latter.
Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by sytelus on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @01:12PM (#29812693)
This was the part I am also confused. Anacdotely, I haven’t seen mass exodus in big tech yet.
Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by mcguire on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:13PM (#29813496)
I have. A large number of our senior developers left last fall.
Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by sndean on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @12:48PM (#29812315)
Might have to wait for real numbers? I can only find reports about companies planning to give raises.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/12/08/wages-202...

Re:A record 4.5M workers quit their jobs in November by lotsofpulp on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @12:45PM (#29812241)
Most definitely is happening at business that employ the lowest wage workers.