- Re WiFi: it's not specific to Framework, and are just bugs in Intel's Linux driver. See bug (and workaround and patches) in my report https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=214693 as well as forum discussion https://community.frame.work/t/using-the-ax210-with-linux-on...

- Re battery: Yup, battery life during sleep sucks, it seems like this is mostly an Intel 11th gen issue as S3 sleep went away and folks on Dell, Lenovo, etc., 11th gen hardware have similar issues.

- Re Fan: it does seem to like to ramp up a bit too much even when components are not really that hot yet.

- Re USB-C: have not used that, so cannot comment

- Re build quality: yes, it is a bit flimsier than I would like (though have definitely used laptops that are way worse), but it is also lighter than competitors that are less so. I am mostly okay with that trade-off, others may not be.

As you say, the company has been responsive and helpful on the community forums in a way the big players never have been, and the BIOS updates are fixing genuine issues and complaints with real release notes. It's not all great for sure, but there's lots of things that are a lot better than competitors.

I mean at the end of the day, you’re buying a laptop from framework, if the laptops work does work that’s on them for choosing to use an intel chip with known issues.

Laptops are sold as an appliance for the most part, they have to own it’s quality.

Actually more than that, this should first be an excellent laptop and then the repairability and customisable it should be layered on top of that without compromising it (too much), as opposed to the other way around.

That's not really fair... no one is going to buy a new laptop without the most modern processor. The problem really is that Intel on mobile is awful and has only been getting worse as they try to compete. I guess you could say Framework dropped the ball by not using AMD.

I don’t think AMD makes Wi-Fi chipsets,so it’s somewhat irrelevant isnt it?

I meant in terms of the OP's complaint about fans spinning up at the slightest usage - that is an Intel CPU issue. Modern mobile intel CPUs get way too hot, too easily. You're right, the wifi side is Intel, although Framework could have used an AX200 without any problems. Although, AX210 does work pretty flawlessly now in the most recent kernels.

Thank you for clarifying that the Intel wifi issues are a Linux kernel thing, not a Framework thing. I tried to communicate that in my comment but obviously I could have been clearer. I'm fairly confident they'll get fixed in Linux eventually but it's still yet-another-issue that's frustrating for a laptop so heavily embraced by the Linux community.

I understand the sleep issues but battery life is miserable generally - the sleep issues only exacerbate an already pretty-much-terrible situation. Fortunately I don't really need significant battery life but if I did I'd be looking to unload this thing at this point.

How are the wifi issues not Framework's responsibility? They are the ones who defined the hardware specs. I would assume they tested different configurations and picked the best options.

Which makes me wonder - maybe the Intel wifi board has a lot of problems but is still the best Linux option...

Their design aim was to make a laptop that is upgradeable and serviceable first. Not 100% Linux support first. This makes sense because software is much easier to improve after the fact than hardware.

And I'm curious to know which WiFi chipset you would rather they have used, as most alternatives either have worse Linux support or aren't as advanced as Intel's. Would you rather they used Broadcom, The bane of WiFi and Linux?

> which WiFi chipset you would rather they have used

That's what my last sentence was trying to express. Something can be shitty and also the best option.

My bad, I took that to be sarcasm.

I mean, Dell and Lenovo sell laptops with Linux pre-installed with Intel AX* WiFi boards that almost certainly suffer the same issue.

I’m not trying to give Framework (or any other laptop maker) a free pass here, just saying that it’s not a unique problem to this laptop.

I was thinking that there was a good Linux option out there. That may not be true.

One of the benefits that a company like Framework has is that they don't have to support everything. They can be like Apple and tailor their hardware choices to the ones best supported by the software.

To me, Asahi Linux is the most exciting thing going on in Linux-land right now. They have a very small number of hardware configurations to support. In theory, they should be able to get it really dialed in and polished to the point where it just works. I don't care if they go for KDE or Gnome, SystemD or SysVinit, or anything else in particular. If it works right from the start and is extraordinarily stable, I'll learn to love the choices they make.

The issues are the same as always: drivers and suspend. Drivers are made worse by the intersection of newer hardware and lagging distros, suspend lately made worse by Intel’s changes in 11th gen and Microsoft pushing its vision of “modern standby”.

Asahi is more of a project for driver and related development and upstreaming it. They do plan to release a distro, but the current plan is for it to just be Arch with the bleeding edge of their work applied (so perhaps not the “dialed-in” you’re looking for since Arch is far from that). IMO, Asahi is just solving the same issue with anything else: lack of drivers for some hardware. It just so happens that the hardware is very specific and popular. My feeling is that I don’t want to invest in hardware whose manufacturer is unwilling to invest at all in my use-case (Linux).

New throwaway since this is a rant at an entitled software developer community…

Do you want open computing?

Or Apple?

Pick one.

I’m really tired of the IT community that just wants high paying jobs but none of the skills that earn them.

As a hardware designer; do better, software “engineers”.

If the community is going to claim the title, it damn well better start engineering better than these awful websites and hacky operating system kernels and GUIs that glitch.

Or stfu over others efforts which are a bit beyond memorizing textbook math and recalling them via your text editor with algorithmic help.

Look at all the non-contributors certain they can do better.

FWIW the workaround in the bug report 100% resolves the WiFi issues for me (it just means losing 802.11ax support, but my AP does not have that anyway). It was definitely the most frustrating issue for me; made game streaming via Moonlight impossible.

Anecdotally, my battery life is plenty good when actually using it (I've yet to feel like I need to reach for the charger at all unless I started very low), but everyone's use case is different.

Yep, I'd actually forgotten about that workaround but I couldn't risk another entire day of lost productivity so I spent my evening running Ethernet. No regrets!

Thanks for the feedback!

Andrew noted in a sibling comment what the issue was with the AX210 in Linux. Intel has informed us that the patch is going into kernel 5.17. In retrospect had we known how many issues we'd see with AX210 relative to AX201, we would have gone with the latter as the default option on the DIY Edition. Going forward though, we do expect compatibility and stability to improve (on 5.17 and later).

On the USB-C issues, it would be great to know the model numbers of the displays and cables that are having this issue. We want to continue to build up our library of peripherals that have unknown issues in order to resolve them.

On build quality, we've seen exceeding few field failures on mechanical issues, and a couple of reports of people dropping their system (or as often happens, blaming their cat for this) from high enough to dent a corner of the chassis and then being able resolve that by ordering a replacement cover part from us.

Hi! Thanks for taking the time to reply to my overwhelmingly negative review. I suppose what I'm saying, generally, is that I should be more selective in my tools. You're a startup. I'm on my third. I should know that when I'm often barely hanging on from the stress and workload of building my own stuff I should select "safe" and "proven" tools. In this case that should have probably been a Macbook (again) because Linux on a laptop is still practically a part-time job itself.

EDIT: Speaking of startups, if you didn't know already you have a lot of "street cred" out there. When wrapping an in-person presentation or meeting many of the questions I get are about my Framework!

Where should I report on the displays and cables with the USB-C issues?

Regarding drops I've actually never dropped a laptop in the > 20 years I've had them. So kind of a non-concern but the comment was referring to the general "feel" which may not really mean anything outside of perception.

On the USB-C issues, if you could drop a ticket in https://frame.work/support#contact_support and mention this thread, that would be great. Thanks!

Thanks, will do!

Would be interesting to see how much battery life there is on Windows. For ThinkPads it’s always much better on Windows than on Linux.