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Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by jpm_sd on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @12:46PM (#29797548)
Much like the Star Wars and Harry Potter franchises, the extent to which Everything Was Carefully Planned In Advance has been greatly exaggerated. It's just not possible to think that far ahead!
Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by aeturnum on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @12:51PM (#29797603)
I also think this blog post betrays a lack of understanding about when it's appropriate to draw lines around "the plot" of a series. Like, it doesn't surprise me that they played with ideas that might have contradicted the trilogy - but they ended up not including them, and those ideas made an appearance later, which actually supports the claim that they were thinking about 2 and 3 during 1.

Like, shooting and then deleting a scene that you think might hurt the plot in future movies is "carefully planning in advance."

Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by kennywinker on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @12:58PM (#29797707)
The theory presented is that it was cut for running time, not for story arc reasons.

I disagree with the article’s premise that it would have changed the story of the sequels - but they make a good case for it being cut for incidental reasons.

Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by aeturnum on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:26PM (#29798115)
I disagree with that read of the evidence they list, to wit:

> In the introduction to a copy of the Final Shooting Script included in the book, editor Spencer Lamm notes that “everything” in the script was filmed but “changes occurred during editing.”[...]the part “where Cypher tells Neo there were five potential Ones before him was shot and then cut in postproduction for reasons only [Lana] and [Lilly] know.”

So the quotes here say they shot everything in the script, but then they made changes in the editing room for reasons only known to the writers of the trilogy. It could be for runtime! I don't think there's any definitive evidence it isn't, but clearly this account also supports them shooting something that they later realized would screw up their planned script.

I also wanna say that there is an ambiguity over if the five "ones" are actually Ones or just people Morpheus believed are ones. It wouldn't contradict the later plotline of Neo being the sixth One for Morpheus to mistakenly free five people who aren't Ones and get them killed - but it would be really confusing! Since the people in question are summarizing a deleted plot arc that the directors removed, I suspect they may be summarizing in a way that wasn't accurate to the understanding of those directors.

All of which is to say that the blog article is telling a very specific story about what seems like pretty ambiguous evidence. The script had reference to previous people pulled out as potential Ones having died to agents. It would be confusing to the audience for these to be five "fake" ones and then also have five previous real Ones, but it wouldn't be internally contradictory. The only way it directly contradicts is with a very narrow meaning which I don't think the blog post convinced me was intended. Beyond that - as I said above - since they never put it into the movie I think this could count as "being intended from the beginning" where the beginning is the release of the first movie.

Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by gjsman-1000 on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @12:51PM (#29797605)
Disney Star Wars however was by far the most blatant example. The sequel trilogy had no overarching plan at all. The Directors were free to make whatever story they wanted.

This of course ended terribly in Episode 8 when Johnson single-handedly destroyed everything Abrams had put in place and left him nothing to go on for the finale.

Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by kemayo on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @04:43PM (#29800972)
I dunno, I think it's more accurate to say that it ended terribly in Episode 9 when Abrams returned, shrugged, and ignored everything that had happened in 8. The film where we were given the phrase "somehow Palpatine returned"... :D

All symptoms of staggering mismanagement by Disney, of course. A trilogy with a stupid planned plot arc would have been better than the sequence of "solid but uninspired Star Wars throwback" + "interesting and out there reinterpretation of the mythos" + "but what if RotJ again but dumber?"

Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by mschuster91 on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:14PM (#29797935)
Which is kinda sad given that Disney as an organization should be aware how much good storytelling and a "cohesion team" is for the importance of an universe, given their experiences with the MCU.

Even the Star Wars expanded universe was carefully and competently taken care of prior the acquisition - so many books and yet so little inconsistencies. Then Disney decided to throw all of the decades of worldbuilding away for three shitty plots and an endless lot of Rey-based Rule 34 material.

The Star Trek reboot quality is similarly questionable, but at least they didn't simply go ahead and un-canon all existing works.

Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by aspenmayer on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @02:03PM (#29798608)
I like the Star Trek reboots, but respecting the lore is not their strong suit.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=aSrSBBLLtYc

Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by mschuster91 on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @03:41PM (#29800146)
I'm a tiny bit out of date regarding ST continuity (lost interest after the end of DS9 and the death of Data in Nemesis) so please correct me if I mess up my time travel or don't get the meme, but the split in the timeline of the reboot happened in the early days of the Kirk captaincy while Discovery is set ten years before TOS... which means all the interactions of the TNG/DS9/VOY episodes with Q didn't have happened yet in the timeline of the first two Discovery seasons and at all in the future of Seasons 3ff?

(Seriously, time travel as a concept is annoying, especially when everyone uses their own version of how it works!)

Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by aspenmayer on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @06:32PM (#29802530)
I thought Q Continuum and Q as individuals existed outside of normal spacetime, although I do like the line of reasoning you have traced.
Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by mschuster91 on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @06:38PM (#29802605)
Urgh, yes. Completely forgot about that part... Q can technically be used to retcon every difference, by a simple act of Q. A snip and whatever is wrong didn't even happen, or it happened in a multi-verse (we have evidence for the existence of at least one, the infamous Mirror Universe... one of my least favorite plot devices).
Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by aspenmayer on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @08:26PM (#29803694)
Mirror Universe is so fun, though! It gave us classics like Mirror Riker. I thought the Mirror Universe in Discovery was very well done, without spoiling anything.
Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by ourmandave on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:53PM (#29798479)
...and an endless lot of Rey-based Rule 34 material.

Good on ya to point out the silver lining.

Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by mschuster91 on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @05:48PM (#29801934)
I actually had to find something I was happy about. Han Solo murdered, Luke and Leia getting sacrificed, for a shitty Palpatine clone of all things? What a disgrace of a chaos of a plot!

ETA: not to mention, the "character dies and gets reborn" plot was already questionable in TCW (where Darth Maul was revealed to have survived being sliced in half by Qui-Gon Jinn in Episode 1), but that one at least had a decent bit of usage... Palpatine's appearance was mostly the reveal at the end on Exegol, a fight and his (hopefully final...) death.

The only way I can see any future films being set is somewhere between the trilogies (there's more than enough to be explained between EP3/4 or between 6/7) or an alternative-timeline reboot happening after EP6 (or maaaaybe but difficult given the deaths of primary actors, a timeline split caused by the destruction of that superlaser planet).

Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by Ergo19 on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:08PM (#29797854)
In my youth it was generally accepted that "George Lucas wrote an entire 9 film series." I don't know how this rumor spread or came to be so widely believed.
Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by graywh on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:55PM (#29798511)
Lucas had plans for sequels way back in the 70s, even making comments about when Mark Hammill would be the right age, but nothing concrete
Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by moritonal on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:05PM (#29797798)
Sad to see Harry Potter lumped in there. Whilst the first seven books had a meticulous plan with payoffs from Book 1 in Book 7, I wholly agree that the spin off franchises did not.
Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by ceejayoz on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @12:48PM (#29797572)
See also: Lost, Battlestar Galactica.
Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by kennywinker on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:00PM (#29797742)
The “and they have a plan” line in the opening sequence got more and more ridiculous as the series went on and it was clear the cylons did NOT have a plan at all.
Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by ceejayoz on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:01PM (#29797759)
"The plan is to wing it."
Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by cwillu on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @05:39PM (#29801801)
I always say that there was a great 3 season show hidden inside BSG's 4 season run.
Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by kennywinker on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @11:26AM (#29811010)
It was the show that made me realize that 22 episode seasons just don’t work with the kind of serialized story that everybody does now. If bsg had been 8-12 episodes per season every episode would have been gold.
Re:A deleted subplot from “The Matrix” contradicts its sequels by Izkata on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @03:10PM (#29799639)
For Lost, there was a rumor online around the second or third season that someone had either figured out or leaked the entire remaining planned plot, so they started changing it in random ways just so they could keep claiming no one had figured it out.