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Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by kstrauser on Monday January 03, 2022 @08:26PM (#29789867)
> people are having success with her ideas today

Citation needed. The whole concept has a critical flaw, as pointed out by her engineering staff and medical advisors: blood tests require a certain minimum volume of blood to work, and that's inescapable because blood components are discrete, not continuous.

For example, a drop of blood is about .05mL, or about 1/20th of a milliliter. A common testing sample size in a normal lab is 3mL, or about 60x larger what Theranos claimed they could work with. Now, suppose you're testing for some cell that's may be present in concentrations of 10 per mL, or 1 per .1mL blood volume on average. In a conventional lab, then, you'd probably have about 30 of those in the 3mL sample. In a Theranos lab, even if it worked perfectly, you're equally likely to have either 0 or 1 present in the .05mL sample. In other words, you're 50% likely to get a false negative, even if the equipment is working perfectly, based purely on the tiny sample volume.

By analogy, if you poll 100,000,000 Americans, you might get a pretty good idea of an election's result. If you poll 3, you have no idea, even if the poll is perfectly designed. Well, that's what Theranos was up against.

NB: I'm not a lab tech, and the above is my understanding of it. That's my distillation of a lot of articles I read about Theranos, such as https://theconversation.com/the-rise-and-fall-of-theranos-so... .

Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by 2YwaZHXV on Monday January 03, 2022 @09:13PM (#29790340)
One thing that seems to be forgotten or lost in all of these armchair analyses is that while it is true that something like 3mL of blood is collected for a conventional lab test, the machine itself when it runs the test only takes a few microliters (maybe 10s of uL, all of this is depending on the test of course). The rest is frozen for follow-up or repeat testing or used for other tests or just discarded after some time.

EDIT: And my favorite part is the first step the Siemens machines they used for testing is to "dilute" the part of the sample it is going to use (addition of DI water, to get the blood to the desired concentration). That is hard-coded into the protocol, with a specific dilution amount, and it is done for all the official Siemens tests, as well, hah.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by kstrauser on Monday January 03, 2022 @11:58PM (#29791540)
According to an article in Nature[1]:

> Holmes described the miniLab as “the most important thing humanity has ever built”. But at best, the lab could do immunoassays using microfluidics. The tiny blood sample had to be diluted extensively (for which there are no reference standards or precedents), leading to artefacts and spurious results.

That (and other reports) sound like they diluted way more than usual.

[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05149-2

Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by 2YwaZHXV on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:04AM (#29791915)
While it is published on their site, it appears to really just be a summary of the book by Carreyrou? And I have yet to see anyone actually publish any of the dilution ratios and compare that to any existing process, so it seems like an easy-but-easily-incorrect leap to conclude that it is "way more than usual".
Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by manquer on Monday January 03, 2022 @09:28PM (#29790485)
While Theranos claims were absurd , it is not hard to believe there is scope for improvements in specific areas which is what OP is trying to say I guess.

1. The premise assumes there are not significant wastage in the current processes and those are near optimal. Any non optimal paths could potentially benefit from improvements

2. While there are some tests at that low concentrations not all tests have components at that low concentrations. Those could certainly be improved ?

3. Reuse and cross testing the same samples, or testing for multiple things at the same time etc, are all areas that could yield better outcomes than current standard.

4. Perhaps it is also possible that while primary marker for a test is not present in the sample, its presence in the blood could have left other markers that are detectable

I don't know anything about lab testing, if I can think of few approaches to solution for the low sample problem. Experts may have many other approaches so it shouldn't be surprising if there are improvements claimed ?

Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by hooande on Monday January 03, 2022 @09:48PM (#29790655)
Many people are working very hard on solving these problems. Holmes simply claimed to have solved them all with one machine. They never had any idea of how to actually do that, never even tried. It wasn't like "If we use this new development in nanotechnology we might be able to...". It was just entirely made up, the whole time.

If I falsely claim to have invented a warp drive, I don't get credit for whatever work people do in that area in the future.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by manquer on Monday January 03, 2022 @10:05PM (#29790788)
Not exactly how it works. There are lot of brilliant people working on lot of good stuff, very few get funding to do meaningful work. The job of someone like Holmes is to bring that funding.

Holmes was an agent to energize the industry in the sense that she was instrument to attracting a lot of new VC investors willing to throw money and experiment with new tech like this . I doubt she personally claimed to have invented anything new, even had Theranos succeeded her claim to fame would be only building the organization that enabled such innovation and not the innovation itself.

Even though Theranos failed as firm, a lot of smart people got funding to work on interesting projects while there and potentially either developed or started developing products because of holmes being able keep them and Theranos funded. A lot of new people are getting funding, because Theranos and Holmes opened this industry to VC funding when it was not traditionally so.

To your example, if you falsely claim to invent a warp drive, raise a lot of money, hire a lot of smart people who do interesting work while working for you, eventually fail as company and those people go on to build parts of the drive partly with experience they gained in your research. This kind of research was not well funded before you, Likely without you this would have never been a VC funded industry don't you have some hand in that ?

Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by hooande on Monday January 03, 2022 @11:30PM (#29791335)
Do you think it's easier for people to raise money in the blood testing space now after this very high profile fraud? I've heard people say that it makes things much more difficult.

Also, Holmes's lies sucked up a ton of funding at the time. Not just the money given to her, but the investors who said "theranos already dominates blood testing, so we'll invest in another space"

This was a disaster all around for everyone but her.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by neom on Monday January 03, 2022 @11:58PM (#29791536)
>This was a disaster all around for everyone but her.

I don't know how you can say that, some of the trial evidence was heart breaking. Some of the emails, the texts back and forth between her and Sunny, what a mess, it sounded like she was totally losing her mind and stressed out to no end while being pushed and cajole by an unreasonably intense person behind the scenes. She was clearly devastated when the company collapsed, she very clearly believed in what she was doing, and now she is going to jail. That sound like beyond a disaster, it sounds like hell.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by hooande on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @12:08AM (#29791618)
She clearly believed in what? The vision of low cost, multi function blood testing? Maybe she did, but she made almost no progress toward that goal. All while accepting credit for having already accomplished it. Not to mention that she's been living the lifestyle of a multi millionaire the whole time.

She's a human being and it is a sad situation. But this is justice.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by abyssiana on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @04:41AM (#29793034)
Read the comments. Nobody cares how she feels now. Everybody cares only about their own opinion they have the need to express. For her it’s all devastating, for resonable people too, for majority of shitty people the main thing ia to grow in their own eyes while barking at someone else.
Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by kstrauser on Monday January 03, 2022 @11:49PM (#29791467)
True, and there are chemistry tests that would probably be reasonably testable. For instance, blood glucose is already testable from a finger prick, so that’d be just fine. Still, a lot of people with the background to have informed opinions have spoken up to say that some of her claims weren’t possible on a theory basis, not just because of an engineering challenge.
Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by neom on Monday January 03, 2022 @08:54PM (#29790135)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/11/16/blood-s...

Maybe not quite as extravagant a claim as hers, hers was def a 100 year vision, but many people are working on and having progress in a very similar area. Heck even Tyler Shultz the kid who is on the road doing a press tour about how "he took down Theranos", is working on a Theranos-esq startup.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by thehappypm on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:37PM (#29815325)
What chemical would only be present in 10 per mL?

A mL of water has ~10^22 water molecules in it. Dilute substances are usually measured in ppm (parts per million). Even 1 ppm would have 10^16 molecules. I think your orders of magnitude are way off here.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by megablast on Monday January 03, 2022 @08:39PM (#29790013)
No need to poll 100 million. 20,000 is pretty accurate.
Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by kstrauser on Monday January 03, 2022 @08:49PM (#29790091)
OK, sure, but that doesn't change my point. You could run all of someone's blood through a scanner and then back into them to get a complete view, but a lab only samples a few mL of it.
Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by dvhh on Monday January 03, 2022 @08:51PM (#29790108)
Usually your sample size would be a good indicator of the accuracy of your poll/test/experiment.

Of course, like everything it could be biased by the used methodology.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes found guilty by tschwimmer on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @12:47AM (#29791837)
This is a great breakdown and some great analogies.